Have you seen the latest BM 630? The knife has been designed by Neil Blackwood. Very nice indeed and IMHO a serious competition to a number of large Spyderco folders.
So far so good. However, the knife opens by using a hole (one of three, whereas the other two are decreasingly smaller).
My feeling is that a hole amongs other holes is still; a hole. I thought Spyderco was the sole CO allowed to use this feature (if not licensed to other CO:s)?
Could you plz fill me in if I am missing something? The legal stuff is not my cup of tea...
~Paul~
Spyderco Collectors Club Member #57
One of three holes is still a hole...
The thread on BF is already turning to a discussion about holes instead of the BM630.
I'd be interested in Sal's comments on this.
By the way, apart from the 'hole' issue, a very nice looking knife... good specs to... 4.3" blade, S30V, frame-lock...
<IMG SRC="http://www.acma-reus.de/BM/630.jpg">
Ted
I'd be interested in Sal's comments on this.
By the way, apart from the 'hole' issue, a very nice looking knife... good specs to... 4.3" blade, S30V, frame-lock...
<IMG SRC="http://www.acma-reus.de/BM/630.jpg">
Ted
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The Deacon
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Ted, there is a similar thread in the BF Spyderco forum as well, and Sal did post what I felt was a very well worded and infomative reply in that one.
Edited to add: For what it's worth, my first reaction on seeing the picture was "man that's one pimped up looking Spyderco".
Paul
Edited by - The Deacon on 12/19/2003 4:37:55 AM
Edited to add: For what it's worth, my first reaction on seeing the picture was "man that's one pimped up looking Spyderco".
Paul
Edited by - The Deacon on 12/19/2003 4:37:55 AM
as dialex stated in the other forum, is similar to a centofante, and i dont see anything of interest (for me, of course)..same ole folder.
Spyderco is WAY far in future with its designers..
this is a classic knife, probally really really well made, but absolutely nothing new.
my 02 c.
http://www.gnm.it - graphic design
Spyderco is WAY far in future with its designers..
this is a classic knife, probally really really well made, but absolutely nothing new.
my 02 c.
http://www.gnm.it - graphic design
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dialex
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It's a scaled down Skirmish, BTW. Nice knife, yet not my cup of tea.
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SilverDragon
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I've read the replies on bladeforums.
All I can say is I like the knife. Blackwood has some fantastic knife designs and I think that his 3-hole thing is cool.
Whether it's infringing on Spyderco's trademark of the "round, opening thumb-hole" is up to Benchmade or Neil Blackwood, Spyderco & the Courts, if it comes down to that.
~Silver Dragon
All I can say is I like the knife. Blackwood has some fantastic knife designs and I think that his 3-hole thing is cool.
Whether it's infringing on Spyderco's trademark of the "round, opening thumb-hole" is up to Benchmade or Neil Blackwood, Spyderco & the Courts, if it comes down to that.
~Silver Dragon
I've been posting on the Spyderco forum and not the bladeforums general forum because I feel that I must answer to our customers. It is not my place to publicly argue the issues, but we are obligated to try to explain to our customers, what our position is.
A registered trademark requires much time, effort and expense. It must be proved to the Trademark commission that the mark truly is associated with the company. Surveys are required, experts are questioned, it is not so simple as just making the product.
When we see custom makers designs with our trademark, we generally contact them and inform them that it is a registered trademark and it is not legal to duplicate the mark in their commerical effort. We will license custom makers to use our mark (50 knives per year) to which most have agreed. We do this because we feel it is good for the custom knife industry.
I don't know how long Mr. Blackwood has been making and showing his custom folders, but I doubt that it is as long as the 23 years that we have been using our mark. We have not seen the design before in industry magazines through articles or ads or we would have followed up. We do not actively search for custom makers designs as we would production pieces.
IMO, putting a circle around the Nike "Swoosh", or making three "swooshes" does not constitute a new tradmark. When Kershaw/ Ken Onion were making their knives with three holes in decreasing sizes on the blade, they agreed to reduce the size of the largest hole to avoid brand confusion. Kershaw is to be commended for their Industry cooperation.
Of course there are also many cases where legal action is necessary to protect our marks, which we do.
When Spyderco designed a butterfly knife, we were very careful to avoid making anything that looked like any other company's designs. Industry cooperation.
When we found "loopholes" in existing patents (Axis, Rolling lock, etc.), we informed Lester & Mel, we shared that information with Bob Taylor, we didn't run out and copy their ideas because we could "get away with it".
Columbia River's "Kiss" design was blasted over a "loophole" in their patents and now look at the proliferation of what was an original design.
We lost our "Dyad" design to Smith & Wesson. We had three patents and a trademarked name, yet they found a "loophole" and had lotsa bucks and a cheap Chinese copy and they sucessfully and legally, IMO, "stole" our design. It happens. I would hope that one "Spyderhole" and two "loopholes" do not constitute a new trademark.
But we still in the end must defend our our marks
I can appreciate that Mr. Blackwood's design is a very attractive. Had we seen the design, we would have probably discussed production when we discussed trademarks. It appears to be a natural Spyderco design.
I can also appreciate the many comments saying that our mark is not our mark, primarily because they like the design or they like Benchmade. This type of loyalty is very good.
Please also consider that Spyderco was developing their round opening hole trademark back when Pacific Cutlery Corp (Benchmade) was developing their butterfly logo.
IMO, a round opening hole is probably more unique than using a butterfly logo to trademark the making of a butterfly knife, but is still a mark.
I'm sure that Benchmade would defend their butterfly logo if it was challenged. But Spyderco would have no reason to attack their mark, we're competitors, not enemies.
Though I'm sure the intent was well meaning, perhaps all of this could have been avoided it Benchmade's German distributor, Acma (also one of Spyderco's German disributors) had held off on publicly posting the pic until Benchmade had finalized and was ready to introduce the new design?
I hope that all of this works out well for everyone's benefit in the end.
sal
A registered trademark requires much time, effort and expense. It must be proved to the Trademark commission that the mark truly is associated with the company. Surveys are required, experts are questioned, it is not so simple as just making the product.
When we see custom makers designs with our trademark, we generally contact them and inform them that it is a registered trademark and it is not legal to duplicate the mark in their commerical effort. We will license custom makers to use our mark (50 knives per year) to which most have agreed. We do this because we feel it is good for the custom knife industry.
I don't know how long Mr. Blackwood has been making and showing his custom folders, but I doubt that it is as long as the 23 years that we have been using our mark. We have not seen the design before in industry magazines through articles or ads or we would have followed up. We do not actively search for custom makers designs as we would production pieces.
IMO, putting a circle around the Nike "Swoosh", or making three "swooshes" does not constitute a new tradmark. When Kershaw/ Ken Onion were making their knives with three holes in decreasing sizes on the blade, they agreed to reduce the size of the largest hole to avoid brand confusion. Kershaw is to be commended for their Industry cooperation.
Of course there are also many cases where legal action is necessary to protect our marks, which we do.
When Spyderco designed a butterfly knife, we were very careful to avoid making anything that looked like any other company's designs. Industry cooperation.
When we found "loopholes" in existing patents (Axis, Rolling lock, etc.), we informed Lester & Mel, we shared that information with Bob Taylor, we didn't run out and copy their ideas because we could "get away with it".
Columbia River's "Kiss" design was blasted over a "loophole" in their patents and now look at the proliferation of what was an original design.
We lost our "Dyad" design to Smith & Wesson. We had three patents and a trademarked name, yet they found a "loophole" and had lotsa bucks and a cheap Chinese copy and they sucessfully and legally, IMO, "stole" our design. It happens. I would hope that one "Spyderhole" and two "loopholes" do not constitute a new trademark.
But we still in the end must defend our our marks
I can appreciate that Mr. Blackwood's design is a very attractive. Had we seen the design, we would have probably discussed production when we discussed trademarks. It appears to be a natural Spyderco design.
I can also appreciate the many comments saying that our mark is not our mark, primarily because they like the design or they like Benchmade. This type of loyalty is very good.
Please also consider that Spyderco was developing their round opening hole trademark back when Pacific Cutlery Corp (Benchmade) was developing their butterfly logo.
IMO, a round opening hole is probably more unique than using a butterfly logo to trademark the making of a butterfly knife, but is still a mark.
I'm sure that Benchmade would defend their butterfly logo if it was challenged. But Spyderco would have no reason to attack their mark, we're competitors, not enemies.
Though I'm sure the intent was well meaning, perhaps all of this could have been avoided it Benchmade's German distributor, Acma (also one of Spyderco's German disributors) had held off on publicly posting the pic until Benchmade had finalized and was ready to introduce the new design?
I hope that all of this works out well for everyone's benefit in the end.
sal
Very good post Sal. It is still a hole though and I for one don't agree with it. Take a company like CRK&T and they made the holes smaller(I assume you are refering to the Viele WASP?)to avoid any conflict. A sign of good business, they have decent folders at decent prices. Benchmade and Spyderco are very competitive and using three holes is just wrong. If Mr. Blackwoood is using "holes" then he should be paying just like the rest of the custom makers that adopt the opening hole. When all is said and done it is probably too costly to go after something like this. It is just too bad they have to resort to stealing other designs.
"everything else is just a jeep"
"everything else is just a jeep"
i posted this on BF/spyderco forum :
------------------------------------------
as usual ,Sal showed that its firm's motto is real.
INTEGRITY.
i feel this story embarassing (guess for who..).
we can go on all year long to make subtle distictions " ..but are 3 holes, the ole is bigger/smaller/whatever.." the fact ,and this is a real fact, is that the round opening hole is a trademark of spyderco since 23 years.
and exactly used as an opening device.
and the knife blade is too similar to a well known spydie..-family test: my wife passing looked at the screen saying " ..will not buy that new spyderco ? dont you ?! is the same of the one you bought this summer (Vesuvius).."
is possible that a well known maker and a well known factory cannot put out somethin really new and personal ? why mess with this kind of things ? no ideas ?
if you are asking yourself " but what the **** this guy is so irritated from this story ?" the answer is :
-i love spyderco designs and i fight to protect what i love, and since a long time i never met people honest and fair as they are -no , i'm not a friend of them, only a customer who got a GREAT service several times-
- as a graphic designer, i had a big problem -in a real smaller scale- for the same attitude of someone else.
- this "tendence" ,if not stopped, could bring A LOT of confusion in the market, and create problems to everybody, collectors and factories..." ..uhu, no ,this isnt a butterfly, is a flying insect.." or "..noo, the word is Emersson, you see the two S..."
p l e a s e.
for me this is an inutile, useless threat against Spyderco.and those people really doesnt deserve it.
regards.
http://www.gnm.it - graphic design
------------------------------------------
as usual ,Sal showed that its firm's motto is real.
INTEGRITY.
i feel this story embarassing (guess for who..).
we can go on all year long to make subtle distictions " ..but are 3 holes, the ole is bigger/smaller/whatever.." the fact ,and this is a real fact, is that the round opening hole is a trademark of spyderco since 23 years.
and exactly used as an opening device.
and the knife blade is too similar to a well known spydie..-family test: my wife passing looked at the screen saying " ..will not buy that new spyderco ? dont you ?! is the same of the one you bought this summer (Vesuvius).."
is possible that a well known maker and a well known factory cannot put out somethin really new and personal ? why mess with this kind of things ? no ideas ?
if you are asking yourself " but what the **** this guy is so irritated from this story ?" the answer is :
-i love spyderco designs and i fight to protect what i love, and since a long time i never met people honest and fair as they are -no , i'm not a friend of them, only a customer who got a GREAT service several times-
- as a graphic designer, i had a big problem -in a real smaller scale- for the same attitude of someone else.
- this "tendence" ,if not stopped, could bring A LOT of confusion in the market, and create problems to everybody, collectors and factories..." ..uhu, no ,this isnt a butterfly, is a flying insect.." or "..noo, the word is Emersson, you see the two S..."
p l e a s e.
for me this is an inutile, useless threat against Spyderco.and those people really doesnt deserve it.
regards.
http://www.gnm.it - graphic design
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dialex
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Isn't Neil Blackwood the one who already had troubles with those credit card knives?
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Sword and Shield
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If he wanted a 3-hole design, why not connect them slightly? It's no longer a round hole, but the look is maintained.
As it is, I'd say <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> is in the right. The Hole is <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>, and <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> is the Hole.
The Man's Prayer- I am a man. But I can change. If I have to. I guess...
As it is, I'd say <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> is in the right. The Hole is <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>, and <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> is the Hole.
The Man's Prayer- I am a man. But I can change. If I have to. I guess...
Neil Blackwood is not mentioned as a knifemaker in the "Knives 20.." book series from Krause. This series is so much as the "who's who" of the custom and production knife industry. I also doubt that he is a member of the Knifemakers Guild, as the members of this elite custom makers association are held to high standards. I also am not aware that Mr. Blackwood has been elected into the Cutlery Hall of Fame. (What would have been the reason that Sal has been elected in to the CHOF????) If so, Mr. Blackwood should stop messing around with other man's intellectual property as Sal Glesser was developing the first "tacticle" one -hand opening knives at a time 25 years ago when no-one in the entire continental US would take the risk producing them for him!!! Now that Spyderco has lots of success with their (patented) invention(s), many are jumping onto the bandwagon in an effort to make a quick buck without paying their dues. I know that in the cutlery world everybody is well aquainted with each other and that they know exactly about the different trademarks etc. All that have started producing knives at a later date as Sal Glesser did, learned from him one way or the other.
Just my point of view.
Clipits work!
Just my point of view.
Clipits work!
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Knife Knut
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samosaurus
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OK... Stupid question:
The first benchmade I ever bought years ago was an AFCK. That thing has a circular hole (it's been discontinued now but was in production a long time). Current models have an oval hole or a thumbstud.
I always assumed that benchmade had licensed that round hole from Spyderco.
So, I guess what I'm asking is what happened with that round hole knife. Was a deal cut between spyderco & benchmade? Has it expired now? It seems if benchmade cut a deal with spyderco for that knife (licensed it, paid royalties, etc.) then they should renew their deal for this new knife. OTOH, if spyderco "let it go" (which I'm betting didn't happen) then they should expect people to try and infringe on them.
here's a pic I found:
http://www.gldistributors.com/_borders/afck.gif
-jb
The first benchmade I ever bought years ago was an AFCK. That thing has a circular hole (it's been discontinued now but was in production a long time). Current models have an oval hole or a thumbstud.
I always assumed that benchmade had licensed that round hole from Spyderco.
So, I guess what I'm asking is what happened with that round hole knife. Was a deal cut between spyderco & benchmade? Has it expired now? It seems if benchmade cut a deal with spyderco for that knife (licensed it, paid royalties, etc.) then they should renew their deal for this new knife. OTOH, if spyderco "let it go" (which I'm betting didn't happen) then they should expect people to try and infringe on them.
here's a pic I found:
http://www.gldistributors.com/_borders/afck.gif
-jb