A Spyderco truly high performance paring knife ?

[FCM415]

They are here:

http://www.opinel-usa.com/collections/o ... wpwsJK9KSM

I have a set. Use them every single day. They are terrific!

Ken

That's what I use as well. Also have a $4 Victorinox paring knife that I like. My Stretch and Opinel 7 make great paring knives as far as folders go.

Does the MBS line have a paring knife that's coming out?

[Cliff Stamp]

Here is some information from Roman Landes on the Herder :


----------------------------
The knife is actually it is a remainer out of a past century.

Solingen has never been famous for its excellent steel such as Sheffield has.
Nor they made beautiful knives unless looking at folders.
Solingen's fame came from the "singing blades".
Take your thumb and glide perpendicular over the edge of the old style knife and it goes "zing", a light noise, that showed that the grind was thin enough for good cutting ability.

In fact Robert Herder is the probably the last who does those knifes.
Whilst a 100 years ago everyone did it. In those times, literally everyone was doing it at home, since grinding was a outsourced business ever since, the workshop was called "Kotten".
Just like at Herder the final grind is done by hand it is called " Blaupliesten".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuxbugpugrY

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQKHiL3jrGg

It is done by a wooden wheel that has a leather rim and on this you take animal glue that is mixed with an abrasive called "Naxos Schmirgel" Maybe 1000 pieces a day a very boaring work. This gives it the ideal geometry lense shape (Konvex).

Although there is no water visible, it is a cold grind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuxbugpugrY

They use special "secret" mixtures e.g. canola oil, paraffin oil, and so on. BTW: I use refined canola oil (Lamp oil) on my "dry" abrasives for cooling, too.

http://europamitte.blogger.de/static/an ... iesten.jpg

http://europamitte.blogger.de/static/an ... heiben.jpg

Quality test was done by the deflection test (flex test) called "Nagelprobe" see the pic attached. The expression comes from the deflection test that was done on the fingernail to show the thin grind. watch movie.

Today Solingens manufacturers a most of the time highly developed cnc grind ing companies fully automatized like Zwilling of Dreizack.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iqm3MPTUy-E

You don't get those knives there anymore.

----------------------------

[Cliff Stamp]

The critical part is the cool grinding, it would not be sensible to grind this geometry without coolant due to the danger of over heating, however modern grinding methods have full flush and even direct immersion grinding (see ESEE/Rowan for example) so that isn't an issue.

[Laethageal]

I was wondering if anyone else was interrested by this project as much as I am ? I was waiting to see that post go back up in the thread list but for reason I dont understand no one does. I really would like to have a few such thin Spyderco paring knives so I could replace those junk I've been using home I don't know why.

[TomAiello]

I was wondering if anyone else was interrested by this project as much as I am ? I was waiting to see that post go back up in the thread list but for reason I dont understand no one does. I really would like to have a few such thin Spyderco paring knives so I could replace those junk I've been using home I don't know why.

I am.

I'm hoping the Spyderco kitchen knives sell well enough to justify a full kitchen line, including a nice paring knife.

[Cliff Stamp]

... for reason I dont understand no one does.

If you have not used a knife like the one I described it is unlikely that it is even appreciated how it performs. It is night say how the Herder performs compared to a standard paring knife, even the "thin" ground ones. What they need to do is come up with an adjective to brand/sell them which is both informative and as well marketable.

For example the Spyderco Master Chef series, designed to be used by people with the experience, skill and desire to use and appreciate a knife fine tuned for extreme cutting performance in focused applications.

[Laethageal]

If I understood well your point, you'd recommand 5cr13 steel for this paring knife. Is that because it's one of the best steel for thin edge which price isn't as expensive as some "high end" steel or is there any other reason for this choice? How would you class 5cr13 vs some other steel that would be great for really thin edge like the Herder?

[Cliff Stamp]

Yes, that is the optimal choice for that geometry for a stainless steel. To clarify you would optimally want a steel which is designed purity wise for very thin edges. The main difference between say AEB-L and 5Cr13 is simply the level of inclusions is much lower in AEB-L. However even a basic 5Cr13 steel is far more optimal than ATS-34/S30V type steel due to the much higher edge stability.

There are lots of choices for non-stainless, the obvious ones are the white/blue steels and the similar western alloys, however non-stainless itself is enough of a warranty/service issue to add an extreme geometry to it. To be clear, yes I would like it but we are asking Spyderco now to take two extreme jumps.

[Mallus]

Yes, that is the optimal choice for that geometry for a stainless steel. To clarify you would optimally want a steel which is designed purity wise for very thin edges. The main difference between say AEB-L and 5Cr13 is simply the level of inclusions is much lower in AEB-L. However even a basic 5Cr13 steel is far more optimal than ATS-34/S30V type steel due to the much higher edge stability.

Would 5Cr13 offer any real benefit over AEB-L? I'm not concerned by being able to run it in dishwasher as I wouldn't do that anyway with any nicer knives. AEB-L is not too expensive and would be way more marketable, especially if the target would be set to knife people. As you say:

For example the Spyderco Master Chef series, designed to be used by people with the experience, skill and desire to use and appreciate a knife fine tuned for extreme cutting performance in focused applications.

... a knife tuned for extreme cutting performance and marketed as such should to my mind have no compromises in the steel selection and should receive a very fine heat treatment on top of that.

[thombrogan]

It's impossible for a steel type; or any other physical material; to not have compromises. 5Cr13 is just a generic name for a large pool of steels with about that much carbon, about that much chromium, and just smidgens of other alloys like manganese to sop up impurities while still performing in the hardness and toughness ranges of 12C27 and 13C26 without getting tied to just one supplier.

[Cliff Stamp]

Would 5Cr13 offer any real benefit over AEB-L?

5Cr13 is a generic name, AEB-L would fall under that name but is a very particular / specific type. It is similar to for example the Endura (AEB-L) is a type of clipit (5Cr13) .

[Mallus]

Thanks Cliff and Thom! I associated 5Cr13 with 12C27 Thinking it wouldn't get quite as hard as AEB-L (13C26) having slightly less carbon. Sorry for being slobby, didn't realize it's a name of the whole class of steels.

[Cliff Stamp]

To clarify, the compositions that you see in charts are nominal, the true values are either ranges or maximum tolerances. For example :

In 1095 :

C is 0.90 - 1.03
S ≤ 0.050
P ≤ 0.040
Mn 0.30 - 0.50

5Cr13 just means a steel which has :

-~ 0.5% carbon
-~ 13% chromium

minimal of anything else.

[Mallus]

Dang the double post from the back seat of my car!

So, with this knowledge I could reformulate: if we were to pick one among the class (of steels, 5Cr13), why not pick the primus (AEB-L, someting else?)? Of course I realize the difference between AEB-L and its less astute class mates is not humongous, but if it's there, and even if half of it is celeb status, why not go for it?

[Cliff Stamp]

No issues, there are some very high performance steels of that class, if you are going to use them then sure use those ones; AEB-L, Nilox, Nitrobe 77 .

[thombrogan]

but if it's there, and even if half of it is celeb status, why not go for it?

My assumption on that would be the bells and whistles for the proposed Spyderco Cliff Stamp Pairing Knife are for performance over all else. Get people in the mood for a knife that cuts because it's made for cutting and makes one snicker at the snickersnack of blades previously believed to be vorpal and not in the mood to say things like "it's good because it has [AEB-L/M390/Gargulplex....]." More importantly, the stainless steels best able to do this have a bad rep amongst users.

edited: Whoops, I type slow.

[Laethageal]

Sal, please make 2 paring knife in the similar ultra-thin design. One AEB-L top quality Spyderco as we're used to see and love so much. Name it The Cliff. Then retake the same design but use the less expensive 5cr13 with a good finish quality but not as exceptionnal as the first one and call it The Cliff Junior. Something close to 3 inch.

I'd buy 1 Cliff and 3 Junior.

[Nate]

I was able to pick up one of these Robert Herder "Windmuehlenmesser" paring knives last week from a US distributor. I want to thank Cliff for sharing his experience with them. He noted earlier in the thread that "If you have not used a knife like the one I described it is unlikely that it is even appreciated how it performs." In my case this statement has proved to be 100% true.

Previously I was a bit skeptical of the performance claims regarding knives with low angles/optimized geometry. I thought that as long as a knife was decently sharp, the differences in the amount of force used between a "slicer" vs. one with a more standard grind would be noticeable but still relatively insignificant. I was wrong. This is a whole new benchmark and now I feel like everything I own should be reground, lol.

Just doing something as simple as cutting up a carrot with the Herder is worlds apart from any other knife I own. Even though it didn't even come particularly sharp (I did 3 very light pps on a fine stone to touch up the edge), it still has cut everything I put in front of it effortlessly. There is zero wedging because it is so thin. I would love to see Spyderco produce something in this class.

The Herder:


The others (yes even the Opinel) now feel overbuilt:

[kbuzbee]

. I would love to see Spyderco produce something in this class.

Absolutely. I'm with you 100% on this. In fact, I'd love to see a line of ultra thin pocket AND kitchen knives offered.

Ken

[bdblue]

The market is really already pretty flooded with higher performance kitchen knives, paring knives etc.

The problem is that most consumers buy the knife that has a famous chef's name on it, and it might be a low end knife at a high end price. My wife buys knives in the department store and I don't interfere with her because it would just start an argument. Also I don't want her to have a very sharp kitchen knife because she might cut the wrong thing with it. She does fine with a cheap serrated knife.

Since I don't interfere with her knife buying I have not been interested in the special requirements of kitchen knives. The last time I worked in the kitchen I used my XHP mule to cube a big roast for chili meat.

I understand the reason for no high carbide steels but I'm wondering what that leaves. I have an old Forstner that my father gave me and it seems to be a pretty hard steel. Thinking about the people that would normally buy and use it I would think it should be a softer steel so they could use it on a steel.