Clarity on the C81CFPE2 – Para Military 2 Carbon Fiber CPM 154/CPM S90V

[Mallus]

I too fail to see the advantage of the selected steel combo, but on a positive note, perhaps this could enentually lead to a functional, synergistic composite produced utilizing the same technology?

[DougC-3]

They went with the material at hand and struck while the iron was hot (sorry). It could have taken months, maybe a year, to seek out and get the best possible steel combination, and probably more cash as well. So it seems reasonable do a trial run with available materials and see how it works out before making a long term commitment and larger investment. There could have been other reasons we don't know about, such as beating someone else to the punch.

I know it was said that more, different knives were planned with this combination of steels, but no one said that other combinations were ruled out for future use.

As for the argument to limit innovation, if Spyderco wants to spend time trying new, leading edge techniques rather than trying to squeeze every nickle out of the current popular model, my hat is off to them.

Most people commenting seem to assume that every one of the knives made with this technique and steel combination will cost an amount similar to the current run, yet it's been said many times that the price of a given run is based on the production costs of that run. It seems logical to me that a small run using new technology and different techniques would obviously cost more per knife than a large run with the technology in place. (duh? :) )... You say time will tell...? OK, that's fair enough.

[Cliff Stamp]

Rather than make a snap judgement....

I didn't make a snap judgment, I noted the reasons why clads were historically used and continue to be used and this steel has none of those properties. These are statement of facts, not matters of judgement.

Steels are not mystical materials, forged by dark elves and subject to magical incantations to imbue them with special abilities. They are subject to the known physical metallurgical laws which can just be looked up and they are as much a matter of opinion/judgment as it is an opinion that water is made out of hydrogen and oxygen.

Now it is a personal viewpoint that I see this choice of materials as a negative, and it isn't an isolated case, this is just one of the more obvious ones. However even in this case I clearly stated why I see it as negative (as it is for function vs performance) rather than just making a blanket statement.

I even cited Ed Schempp who notes it isn't simply about performance, again for me, Spyderco has been one of the few manufacturers who does focus on performance and it isn't a positive thing to see them start to do things similar to KAI because they look cool vs work well.

But again, your money, if you like knives because they are pretty and you find this pretty - you are likely to see it as positive.

[phillipsted]

Thank you, Kristi for the explanation. We tend to be "enthusiasts" on this Forum - and engage in a lot of idle speculation when there isn't enough information to fill the gap. Makes for interesting discussion, certainly - but hearing the actual situation makes complete sense. Business is business - and you have a reason for releasing them this way. More power to you.

This is a great knife.

TedP

[Ankerson]

I didn't make a snap judgment, I noted the reasons why clads were historically used and continue to be used and this steel has none of those properties. These are statement of facts, not matters of judgement.

Steels are not mystical materials, forged by dark elves and subject to magical incantations to imbue them with special abilities. They are subject to the known physical metallurgical laws which can just be looked up and they are as much a matter of opinion/judgment as it is an opinion that water is made out of hydrogen and oxygen.

Now it is a personal viewpoint that I see this choice of materials as a negative, and it isn't an isolated case, this is just one of the more obvious ones. However even in this case I clearly stated why I see it as negative (as it is for function vs performance) rather than just making a blanket statement.

I even cited Ed Schempp who notes it isn't simply about performance, again for me, Spyderco has been one of the few manufacturers who does focus on performance and it isn't a positive thing to see them start to do things similar to KAI because they look cool vs work well.

But again, your money, if you like knives because they are pretty and you find this pretty - you are likely to see it as positive.

Cliff, if you are going to direct quote someone at least read the post you are quoting.....

Yes, Cliff, you are spot on, I concur with your estimates. The emails I exchanged years ago with Dick Barber included recommendations much like you have given me, except from the line of steel they manufacture. There are some considerations besides function in getting a product to market. The clad had to be in process or in inventory for the experiment to take place. The marketing of 154 CM has been around a long time. There is some synergy between the clad and core. Because of the CPM process the 154 is very nice to work and grind. It polishes very well, better than most stainless knife steels. This laminate should out perform many of it steel competitors for their given applications. This stuff is cool and it is pretty. When you look at Halle Berry do you wonder how fast she runs 100 yards? It is not always about performance it is nice to have a high performance piece of steel in your pocket that you are intrigued and amazed by. If this material sells then maybe the next generation of material will show up down the road. This whole project has availability, convenience, marketability as priorities and increased function trailing behind, yet still advantageous.

Nobody paid me for my recommendation, Spyderco didn't get preference on the initial test billet, all the players got some. This is about opening a horizon that will give us new cooler, and best of higher performance steels, that are made in the USA...Take Care...Ed

I don't see it as a negative, I see it as learning experience as it's a NEW process and could lead to other composites in the future using this new process.

And that could be a very positive thing.

Something like a large blade in CPM 154/S7 for example.... Or in CPM 154/52100.... If it could be done it would make one heck of a strong blade.

[All-R-Crazy]

If this works well and leads to new technology does that mean that well get a nice edc blade that looks pretty/ cool/ unique blades. If this is that gateway then I'm fine with letting spyderco test it, because I see a possible out come and I think it is worth it and if spyderco is willing to rest it then they must b thinking pretty similar thoughts. Just my 2 cents

[Cliff Stamp]

Jim,

It is obvious to the point of being trivial, if you compare the edge behavior of the clad to the edge behavior of the same knife steel non-cladded it would be the same and thus the same statements can be made about the edge of the clad to other steels as would be made about a non-clad.

However, no one is even debating that because it is a non-issue because that isn't why clads are used.

Clads are used for very specific reasons to provide actual benefits to the steel due to drawbacks and limitations of the actual edge-steel, this isn't the case here. Ed noted clearly why it was done and it wasn't for function.

For some people this isn't a positive direction for Spyderco as it is just another step away from performance and into fadding and branding based manufacturing (make something because it sells).

As for experiment, again it is an experiment which isn't about function, it is about branding, it is about fadding, and it is about marketing and leveraging perception. All of which make excellent sense from a business perspective.

The steel manufacture gets to use steels they have on hand, they get someone to pay for the process, the knife maker gets to sell high end sprint runs and the ELU gets pieces which can be flipped on the secondary for 25-50% gain, all positives.

However from my perspective, the positives that I have always saw in Spyderco, why I buy Spyderco knives are not there and in fact the opposite is there. But everyone spends their money differently.

[JNewell]

Three at NGK, $293, @ 16:15 ET.

[JNewell]

Replying to Jim and Cliff without quoting - I still don't see the big performance (cutting performance) advantage to using CPM-154 around S90V...? I'd love to be educated on that. :confused:

[gbelleh]

Wow, I saw two in stock. But by the time I logged in, they were gone!

[nccole]

Three at NGK, $293, @ 16:15 ET.

Thanks, I went ahead and grabbed one. Mark one for the user category! I don't have any S90V, or the Golden CF. No more new knives for a while though :o

[Henry - get both]

Nabbed one :D

[jalcon]

Not a bad price, I probably would have picked one up for that.

[nccole]

Wow, I saw two in stock. But by the time I logged in, they were gone!

I got really lucky then, because NG is not a place I have bought from, so I created an account. There were two when I put it in my cart, then had to fill out all the info.

[Henry - get both]

Me too.

I was surprised when my order went through. I figured they would sell out while I was checking out.

[Liquid Cobra]

Lucky devils! I'm very jealous.

[Philo Beddoe]

CC # 002V on ebay now..

I called a well known knife dealer today and they said "yep, we got 2 in but were keeping em"

With all the ones not even leaving dealers hands these could turn out to be ultra rare..

[wrdwrght]

However from my perspective, the positives that I have always saw in Spyderco, why I buy Spyderco knives are not there and in fact the opposite is there. But everyone spends their money differently.

So, I would ask, what signs other than this offered cladding, has Spyderco shown to suggest a trend away from performance and toward the trendy? If none, I wonder if you have spoken too soon. If others, what should we avoid, in your estimation?

[IG-88]

2 on Ebay. One selling in 3 hours, now at $505

[Ankerson]

Jim,

It is obvious to the point of being trivial, if you compare the edge behavior of the clad to the edge behavior of the same knife steel non-cladded it would be the same and thus the same statements can be made about the edge of the clad to other steels as would be made about a non-clad.

However, no one is even debating that because it is a non-issue because that isn't why clads are used.

Clads are used for very specific reasons to provide actual benefits to the steel due to drawbacks and limitations of the actual edge-steel, this isn't the case here. Ed noted clearly why it was done and it wasn't for function.

For some people this isn't a positive direction for Spyderco as it is just another step away from performance and into fadding and branding based manufacturing (make something because it sells).

As for experiment, again it is an experiment which isn't about function, it is about branding, it is about fadding, and it is about marketing and leveraging perception. All of which make excellent sense from a business perspective.

The steel manufacture gets to use steels they have on hand, they get someone to pay for the process, the knife maker gets to sell high end sprint runs and the ELU gets pieces which can be flipped on the secondary for 25-50% gain, all positives.

However from my perspective, the positives that I have always saw in Spyderco, why I buy Spyderco knives are not there and in fact the opposite is there. But everyone spends their money differently.

Cliff,

I am think that possibly in the future the process could bride the gap between those Master Smiths who use different grades of steel that are welded together then forged in the knives and swords they make and the production companies and or Custom knife Makers who do material removal.

It was just a thought, and hope. :)