Mule Team flipping

ManixFan · #181

Quote Originally Posted by JNewell View Post
I think a pre-order concept could work, but if it were to have a chance at working, I think it would have to be paid in full, and well ahead of time. The reason speculators are in this is for a quick buck. If they have to tie up cash for half a dozen or more knives for months ahead of time, they'll find other property to flip. But $20 or 20% up front won't change their behavior - it needs to be paid in full.

Prospero wrote:Agreed. I also wouldn't mind paying a little more, especially for these hot steels. Spyderco deserves to make something off these for spoiling us so completely. :rolleyes:

There is nothing wrong with a pre-order - but then again there are those that stumble into Spyderco collecting a year or more after such a pre-order/release and would love to get earlier MT releases at perhaps not the original pricing but at least not get gouged to death on ebay as will occur for those wanting a MT-18 in a couple years time and who perhaps hasn't even heard of Spyderco at this point in their life because they haven't yet been exposed to the bug.

I missed out on a leaf bladed Swick simply because I didn't know about them at the time they were released earlier and also wasn't collecting at the time but I will be getting the Swick 4 leaf blade when it is re-released. Same concept.......introduce a well loved MT edition to a new customer base that never had the opportunity to purchase the original release.

Stuart Ackerman · #182

The idea of a Mule is one of the best ever in regards to getting folks to to try "new" steels..
Flicking them on is a problem that will never be controlled...it all revolves around honesty and potential greed/profit...

I have not bought any Mule yet due to various reasons, but not from lack of desire...
I was offered a pair, but the cost was so high , I refrained...

As long as folks are prepared to pay higher than reasonable prices, the problem will not stop...

SpyderNut · #183

How about a random raffle/lottery drawing? I’ve read that some custom knife-makers (in effort to keep up with demand) offer their knives solely through a random drawing or lottery-style system. In other words, the prospective buyer would enter his/her name in a raffle/lottery. If the buyer’s name is selected, the buyer would then have the opportunity to purchase one knife. Maybe Spyderco could limit each potential buyer to two or three entries per raffle/lottery. To me, this type of system would ostensibly weed out the people who wish to purchase the knife solely to turn a profit because the buyer has to put forth the extra effort to make the purchase.

JNewell · #184

ManixFan wrote: There is nothing wrong with a pre-order - but then again there are those that stumble into Spyderco collecting a year or more after such a pre-order/release and would love to get earlier MT releases at perhaps not the original pricing but at least not get gouged to death on ebay as will occur for those wanting a MT-18 in a couple years time and who perhaps hasn't even heard of Spyderco at this point in their life because they haven't yet been exposed to the bug.

I missed out on a leaf bladed Swick simply because I didn't know about them at the time they were released earlier and also wasn't collecting at the time but I will be getting the Swick 4 leaf blade when it is re-released. Same concept.......introduce a well loved MT edition to a new customer base that never had the opportunity to purchase the original release.

There is literally nothing in this thread that would address that, other than keeping limited edition runs in continuous production and never discontinuing any knife...

Prospero · #185

ManixFan wrote:Quote Originally Posted by JNewell View Post
I think a pre-order concept could work, but if it were to have a chance at working, I think it would have to be paid in full, and well ahead of time. The reason speculators are in this is for a quick buck. If they have to tie up cash for half a dozen or more knives for months ahead of time, they'll find other property to flip. But $20 or 20% up front won't change their behavior - it needs to be paid in full.

There is nothing wrong with a pre-order - but then again there are those that stumble into Spyderco collecting a year or more after such a pre-order/release and would love to get earlier MT releases at perhaps not the original pricing but at least not get gouged to death on ebay as will occur for those wanting a MT-18 in a couple years time and who perhaps hasn't even heard of Spyderco at this point in their life because they haven't yet been exposed to the bug.

I missed out on a leaf bladed Swick simply because I didn't know about them at the time they were released earlier and also wasn't collecting at the time but I will be getting the Swick 4 leaf blade when it is re-released. Same concept.......introduce a well loved MT edition to a new customer base that never had the opportunity to purchase the original release.

There's always going to be someone late to the game....that's just life. I discovered Spyderco long after the ATR was disco'd and I don't think Sal is going to re-release a USA Ti model w/ cobra hood just for me. I think a 4-6 month pre-order window is enough time for anyone aware of the program to buy in and would give Sal a good estimate of how many units to produce.

ManixFan · #186

Prospero wrote:There's always going to be someone late to the game....that's just life. I discovered Spyderco long after the ATR was disco'd and I don't think Sal is going to re-release a USA Ti model w/ cobra hood just for me. I think a 4-6 month pre-order window is enough time for anyone aware of the program to buy in and would give Sal a good estimate of how many units to produce.

Yes - you are right that there will always be someone late to the game but why not re-release when enough people show up who want to see the game replayed? Then in that case it wouldn't be a case of Sal re-releasing an ATR USA Ti model w/ cobra hood just for you but rather re-releasing that blade for you and the 600 others who have indicated an interest in that model. Afterall isn't that what an "exclusive" run is all about? Sort of? An external company commissions a certain minimum run from Spyderco and it is produced for them? If you wanted to place an order for 600 "USA Ti model w/ cobra hood" or can find 299 friends who want two such knives then why wouldn't Spyderco re-produce such a run if it is profitable for them?

That is the scenario under which I would envision re-releases - only where the demand exists. It is what Spyderco does anyways in a certain sense otherwise why would they be re-releasing the leaf bladed Swick 4 if a version was previously sold that would be virtually almost identical. I for one am very happy that they are re-releasing this model - and I'm sure that they've also done their homework on estimating the demand and appetite for such a re-release prior to committing to it. This would be no different for a re-released MT. Of course people currently sitting on a stockpile of desired MT's would hate the idea of a re-release as well as those that want their current MT to remain a coveted item. It is always nice to have a "precious" that others want - it increases the pride of ownership of your own property.

I am not suggesting keeping a MT in continuous production but a potential second release of the most high demand MT's would at least beat back the demons on ebay to some extent......and also let those late to the game get their own "precious".

ugaarguy · #187

I'd actually buy an ATR sprint run / re-release before I bought a MT simply because I use and carry folders more than I use and carry fixed blades.

Fred Sanford · #188

David Lowry wrote:Limit a MT purchase to someone who is a member of this forum and has been for at least a year. Associate the forum name with their real name. Allow one purchase. Limit that purchase to 1 knife. Once you buy you cannot buy again. Laser etch the forum name into their blade.

I put my original post here so people wouldn't have to search out what he thinks is not fair.

Officer Gigglez wrote:This isn't a fair solution, as there many Spyderco fans who would love to have a Mule, but do not frequent or even touch these forums. If what you proposed went into effect, they would never be able touch a Mule.

Life's not fair. Everybody doesn't have a million dollars.

Plus how hard is it to become a member of this forum and participate? Who cares about waiting a year. Everybody wants things instantly these days.....those folks need to calm down a bit.

FCM415 · #189

JNewell wrote:Maybe there isn't any problem worth fixing here? If the estimates above that 1.6% of the knives have shown up on eBay, maybe the problem isn't worth devoting time and resources to fixing? Say that 1.6% is too low because it doesn't capture all venues and all sales - so double it, and you only have roughly 3% of the run being flipped. No matter how offensive it is to see someone with six of these, maybe that just isn't worth tying Spyderco and ourselves up in knots over.

Edit: I just did a quick survey at eBay and found 20 sold or for sale S110V mules, which would amount to roughly 3.3%, which is still a pretty small number of knives. I think there may well be a question of proportionality here.

The more this thread continues... It's becoming more evident that what you say is true. Seriously, make more pieces for highly anticipated ones... At worse cut the limit to one until the sale slows down... That's about all this situation really deserves. Please Sal, do not artificially raise prices as some here suggest. Why must we get penalized more because of a few bad apples? That is ridiculous.

/Thread

#190

Hi All,

Very enlightening thread. Thanx much for contributing. Yes, I did read them all, and yes, it did take more than a few minutes.

I'd like to welcome all of the new posters and lurkers. Yours thoughts are always valuable.

While there is much to digest and ponder, I thought to share some thoughts;

The steels that we use often require a great deal of time to get. Heck, we've been working on some steels for years and may have found a way to get some. Trying to get early orders or know price or how many to make would have to be done too long in advance to be effective. We already have the next 3 steels in our possession or is being shipped. Some had to be custom made with long lead times. Now I wish we had ordered more, but if we begin that now (one solution). it won't have an effect for a year.

Each steel is different in its properties and processing and we don't know how much they cost to make until after we've made them.

I believe that demand in general has grown and we need to recognize and respond to that.

Part of the way we've been able to keep the cost down is by "cutting out the middleman". "Flippers" are really just middlemen and that's why the prices seem high. Partially is by eliminating labor on our part. More record keeping, engraving, holding and recording funds, etc. will all add labor making it more expensive and more difficult to "fit" it in.

I think the first adjustment will need to be to increase the number we make. I would like to keep the prices as low as possible for the reasons mentioned. (Though I am thinking about dinging you 5% for a charity). I would also like to keep the 2 minimum for many of the reasons mentioned.

Gail and I have been discussing this all weekend.

Again, thanx much for your involvement.

sal

flash900 · #191

Thanks, Sal. Keeping prices low and making more product available sounds quite reasonable.

If need be, add a lottery.

jabba359 · #192

sal wrote:I would like to keep the prices as low as possible for the reasons mentioned. (Though I am thinking about dinging you 5% for a charity).

I think even 10% would be reasonable. I'd be more than happy to pay a charity "tax".

springnr · #193

Well to start... I have not read through the thread yet, but will as I'm sure many good opinions are to be found within.

The folks that buy from flippers enable the flippers. They deserve each other.

That said, I think in the grand scheme of things the amount of flipping is in the noise signal wise, and most mules get to the intended customer.

It is salt rubbed into the wound to miss out and then see the flippers, but the truth is, on a limited run some folks are going to miss out, flippers or no flippers

QUICKSILVER · #194

If you do a charity contribution, consider Knife Rights.

Bill Maier

#195

QUICKSILVER wrote:If you do a charity contribution, consider Knife Rights.
Bill Maier

Hi Bill,

We already contribute to both Knife Rights and AKTI.

sal

QUICKSILVER · #196

drichardson67 wrote:This obviously is a sticky subject. But I want to be painfully personal and vulnerable on this issue. It is very important to me. I might could be considered a 'flipper' if the only data available was what was easily available online, because I do do buy/sell/trade quite a few knives online. But that would be such a truncated view. I came to the mule teams relatively late. But completely fell in love them. I think the MT 12 or 13 was the first that I bought directly from Spyderco. Everything previous to that I bought on the secondary market. And I bought a crap load of them. And when I say a crap load, I mean a crap load. Probably more than 50 before I was even aware of Spyderco's home page. ( I'm a dumb farmer...not particularly literate when it comes to the world of computers and the internet). But beecause I loved the concept; because I loved the quality, everything about the mules...I was making handles, sharing them with family, friends, and fellow hunters. My 'customized' mule was the perfect gift. I loved fooling around with good...cutting edge...powder steel...and the Mule was what with which I cut my juvenile knife collecting teeth long before I knew much of anything about steel... or knives...or knife collecting....

Ever since then I've bought my 'pair' directly from Spyderco...except for the k390, which I missed out on completely... except for the secondary market. I actually bought 4 on the secondary market. I thought they were worth what I paid for them. And all but one came with Halpern scales to boot. But, alas, no sheath... Again, I happily paid what I thought they were worth to me.

(deleted the rest to make word limit. See post #163)

Congratulations - Gutsy post.

You are what is called a "speculator" or a nicer term a "market maker" in the stocks and commodities markets. That is not a bad thing. If you don't do it someone else will. You buy low and sell high. At least you hope to. But there is always a risk of losing money.

Most of the folks on this forum are consumers (including me). We all want things as cheap and plentiful as possible with no risk. Nothing wrong with that either.
The problem comes when consumers ask someone else to make a product cheap and plentiful with no risk. Usually it is the government but here it is Sal. I just read his post #189. Being a really decent person, he had decided to take the risk of increasing the number of mules in each run. It took many months for the Cruware (MT-12) to sell out. So if the market for mules sours he could be stuck with them. That costs money and is a real risk he is willing to take for his customers. Thank you Sal.

If we consumers won't pay high prices for newly issued mules on the secondary market, the prices will not be as high. After all, we don't need mules we just want them. It's not like food or water which we need or we die. It is more like TV or eating out. So we can make things better by not paying more than about 10% above the issue price for a few months after mules come out.

Incidentally, my dad and his brothers had a truck farm in NJ. I worked there summers as a kid so I understand hard work and risk.

Thanks for the post,

Bill Maier

JNewell · #197

Hats off - thanks. Whatever you decide, we know you will have thought it through and I know most if not all of us trust you to arrive at a good solution. :spyder:

sal wrote:Hi All,

Very enlightening thread. Thanx much for contributing. Yes, I did read them all, and yes, it did take more than a few minutes.

I'd like to welcome all of the new posters and lurkers. Yours thoughts are always valuable.

While there is much to digest and ponder, I thought to share some thoughts;

The steels that we use often require a great deal of time to get. Heck, we've been working on some steels for years and may have found a way to get some. Trying to get early orders or know price or how many to make would have to be done too long in advance to be effective. We already have the next 3 steels in our possession or is being shipped. Some had to be custom made with long lead times. Now I wish we had ordered more, but if we begin that now (one solution). it won't have an effect for a year.

Each steel is different in its properties and processing and we don't know how much they cost to make until after we've made them.

I believe that demand in general has grown and we need to recognize and respond to that.

Part of the way we've been able to keep the cost down is by "cutting out the middleman". "Flippers" are really just middlemen and that's why the prices seem high. Partially is by eliminating labor on our part. More record keeping, engraving, holding and recording funds, etc. will all add labor making it more expensive and more difficult to "fit" it in.

I think the first adjustment will need to be to increase the number we make. I would like to keep the prices as low as possible for the reasons mentioned. (Though I am thinking about dinging you 5% for a charity). I would also like to keep the 2 minimum for many of the reasons mentioned.

Gail and I have been discussing this all weekend.

Again, thanx much for your involvement.

sal

Laethageal · #198

Hey Sal, simply out of curiosity, can you tell us what are those 3 next mule steel you have? I might have missed it in another topic but would really like to know!

Thank you again for driving your company like a loving father who care about his customers!

FCM415 · #199

Saturday and Sunday and he's spending it in the forums with us. Truly a labor of love.

RadioactiveSpyder · #200

He da man.