(Didn't read the whole 7 pages, it was 4 pages when I stumbled uppn this thread)
Sal,
Thank you for considering this issue. I for one, believe that the flipper always have a way around any regulation/limit being imposed on. Let me illustrate from the PC/Mac world:
Let's see Apple practice: I bought a new iPhone & my older Mac received update on Keynote, Numbers and Pages, which actually only ship with new Mac purchase. What a rewarding experience!
Compare that to folks who struggle to make their games working for LAN multiplayer because Steam & the publisher decided to lock the system so tight to prevent piracy. At the end, some of these people had to resort to using cracked apps to make the local LAN working.
What I'm trying to say, instead of punishing the bad guy (ala Steam), it's better to reward the loyal enthusiasts (ala Apple). Spyderco has been (based on feedback in forum, bews, interviews) about caring to customers, so as much as you can (and viable), make a longer run, so that those missing out for initial run will be able to re-try again. The flipper will wait as always, but their wares has become 'not so limited run' and reduced in the profitablility. Still there, but less rampant.
No matter what, there will be a knife enthusiasts out there that are not getting the Mule for many reasons:
- missed the chance (work/life stress)
- not having the fund (i.e. Third world economy)
- not live in US and shipping is too costly
Or ...
- not even on internet :D
Or combination of those factors ...
I'd say keep up the good work, a lot of the customers are happy for the chance to try the steel, rule of 2 max is ok (many will want one NIB & one user)
And lastly, let's remember, missing out a run is not a life & death situation ... So being sour about it won't be good for anyone ..
Mule Team flipping
Thanks Doug. I posted a similar thought in post #7. Good to know I'm not the only one who thought the problem may appear to be larger than it actually is.DougC-3 wrote:As I read this thread, I don't believe I saw any mention of an estimate of the percent of each mule release that winds up in the hands of flippers.
Apart from that, I do also like the pre-order idea. It may even be beneficial in terms of guaging interest and sizing the runs appropriately. I have no idea how this would play out in terms of costs and logistics for Spyderco though. I assume for this to work the way it's been described, the orders would have to be taken and tracked something like 18mos to 2yrs in advance.
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Officer Gigglez
- Member
- Posts: 801
- Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:22 pm
- Location: Originally out of Arizona, currently live in Missouri.
This isn't a fair solution, as there many Spyderco fans who would love to have a Mule, but do not frequent or even touch these forums. If what you proposed went into effect, they would never be able touch a Mule.David Lowry wrote:Limit a MT purchase to someone who is a member of this forum and has been for at least a year. Associate the forum name with their real name. Allow one purchase. Limit that purchase to 1 knife. Once you buy you cannot buy again. Laser etch the forum name into their blade.
Spyderco Knives (in order of obtainment):
-Tenacious, Combo edge
-Tasman Salt, PE
-Persistence Blue, PE
-Pacific Salt, Black, PE
-Delica 4, Emerson Grey
-DiAlex Junior
-Byrd SS Crossbill, PE
-Endura 4 Emerson Grey
-Byrd Meadowlark 2 FRN, PE
-Resilience
-Tenacious, Combo edge
-Tasman Salt, PE
-Persistence Blue, PE
-Pacific Salt, Black, PE
-Delica 4, Emerson Grey
-DiAlex Junior
-Byrd SS Crossbill, PE
-Endura 4 Emerson Grey
-Byrd Meadowlark 2 FRN, PE
-Resilience
Maybe not but at the rate we're going now people are missing out anyway aren't they? Then others are buying 9 at a time. That may not be the perfect solution but as long as anyone can buy, flippers will always have friends and spouses etc buying knives for them so they can beat the system. If you want to stop flippers you simply must limit who can buy. That's the only solution. Even a 2 year prepay won't solve the issue because those same people can have their friends prepay and the end result is the same. Limiting quantity or how many per person just gives justification to jacked up prices. The collector's club system is the perfect example of how to fix this. Have you ever seen anyone flipping 9 of the same number collector's club knife? No, because there's only one of each for the person who owns that number.Officer Gigglez wrote:This isn't a fair solution, as there many Spyderco fans who would love to have a Mule, but do not frequent or even touch these forums. If what you proposed went into effect, they would never be able touch a Mule.
~David
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The Mastiff
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- Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:53 am
- Location: raleigh nc
I feel embarrassed that Sal has to deal with this type stuff like we are a bunch of children with some being bad. Sorry Sal.
I'm all for doing some investigative work and finding out who is doing this then banning them from future mules. Set the limit back to one knife each until the valid orders have been filled. Then, with extras start again one each customer until sold out.
If someone is in it just to flip mules they aren't one of us and shouldn't be allowed access to the mules. At the very least a flipper will have to work harder and sell them through shill accounts. None of us should have 4-6 to sell if we are doing things as intended.
How difficult would it be to get the names of the ones selling the knives now before they can set up shills? Get the names we can now and make examples of them.
They deserve what they get.
There have been folks that bought a second to offer it to someone who didn't have the money to get one at that time. These guys aren't the problem IMO. It's the guys with 4 or 5 that need to have their heads put on a virtual pike on the sides of the main roads coming into town ( Golden, CO., Earth) and made examples of.
Persona non grata at the SFO for Mules until otherwise notified. Likewise any from that IPaddress or same card number or pay pal acct. to keep them from just having some ordered to a family member with their card. Nothing is perfect but making a few examples now will help in a few ways. No warnings need to be given as the rules were no more than 2 per.
Start checking the IP addresses, card numbers and see if E bay can help on this one too. That will get the worst of the offenders.
I'm all for doing some investigative work and finding out who is doing this then banning them from future mules. Set the limit back to one knife each until the valid orders have been filled. Then, with extras start again one each customer until sold out.
If someone is in it just to flip mules they aren't one of us and shouldn't be allowed access to the mules. At the very least a flipper will have to work harder and sell them through shill accounts. None of us should have 4-6 to sell if we are doing things as intended.
How difficult would it be to get the names of the ones selling the knives now before they can set up shills? Get the names we can now and make examples of them.
They deserve what they get.
There have been folks that bought a second to offer it to someone who didn't have the money to get one at that time. These guys aren't the problem IMO. It's the guys with 4 or 5 that need to have their heads put on a virtual pike on the sides of the main roads coming into town ( Golden, CO., Earth) and made examples of.
Persona non grata at the SFO for Mules until otherwise notified. Likewise any from that IPaddress or same card number or pay pal acct. to keep them from just having some ordered to a family member with their card. Nothing is perfect but making a few examples now will help in a few ways. No warnings need to be given as the rules were no more than 2 per.
Start checking the IP addresses, card numbers and see if E bay can help on this one too. That will get the worst of the offenders.
"A Mastiff is to a dog what a Lion is to a housecat. He stands alone and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race" Cynographia Britannic 1800
"Unless you're the lead dog the view is pretty much gonna stay the same!"
"Unless you're the lead dog the view is pretty much gonna stay the same!"
All is not lost. Your post prompted this thought. Spyderco could produce a very large number of Mules out of the cheapest steel in China. They sell them to us at cost, say $10, with no etching, no limits, etc. Now anyone can etch any darn thing they want on it and sell it on the bay for whatever someone will pay. The only way to guarantee that you have a Mule in the advertised steel is to buy it from Spyderco directly. Everything else is probably fake and not even worth the cost of shipping. Oh, you need to publicize it widely, so no one who does their diligence gets screwed. All we need now is a shared laser etching machine, or someone willing to sell us time on one...buckthorn wrote:Allow each customer to purchase THREE knives. Then, those of us who don't like flipping can keep one or two, and put the second and/or third on Ebay at our exact cost plus fees and shipping. That removes the burden from Spyderco and allows us individuals to do something to directly alleviate the problem. Each of us would have to lay out money for one more knife than we want but we should be reimbursed fairly quickly. As I've been typing this I realize that flippers could purchase the ones we're selling on Ebay and still raise the price for resale. At least I've presented a different approach. Can anyone think of a way of refining it? (Isn't it frustrating when you believe your genius is about to be demonstrated and you find a major flaw in your thinking?!)
Gordon
I'm not sure if this much trouble and effort are required for a non-profit program for afis.
Flippers are annoying but the main issue is just getting knives into the hands of those who want it, right?
With that in mind, and given the roll-out is typically more than a year or 2, pre-registration and payment in advance makes it easier for people who are interested to order and wait, and more difficult for flippers to justify investment. we could pay 80% of the projected cost and top up the difference to the actual cost upon completion of the run.
I really like the idea of engraving forum names on mules instead of serial numbers if tracking flippers was a priority. It would make the mules more special to me, and i'd have no problems paying for it. But I dislike the idea of adding any burden to Spyderco's already tight production schedule.
I disregard the flippers because I assume pretty soon some dispicable factory will start churning out mules and sell them for $50 or less. It would be inferior metal but marked as something exotic. At that point, only mules bought directly from Spyderco will be known to be genuine and the flippers will be stuck with their $900 investment that they can't recoup.
Flippers are annoying but the main issue is just getting knives into the hands of those who want it, right?
With that in mind, and given the roll-out is typically more than a year or 2, pre-registration and payment in advance makes it easier for people who are interested to order and wait, and more difficult for flippers to justify investment. we could pay 80% of the projected cost and top up the difference to the actual cost upon completion of the run.
I really like the idea of engraving forum names on mules instead of serial numbers if tracking flippers was a priority. It would make the mules more special to me, and i'd have no problems paying for it. But I dislike the idea of adding any burden to Spyderco's already tight production schedule.
I disregard the flippers because I assume pretty soon some dispicable factory will start churning out mules and sell them for $50 or less. It would be inferior metal but marked as something exotic. At that point, only mules bought directly from Spyderco will be known to be genuine and the flippers will be stuck with their $900 investment that they can't recoup.
Y
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RadioactiveSpyder
- Member
- Posts: 4660
- Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:48 pm
- Location: Lost in space
I'd like to chime in with David's (and others) thought in mind to have a Mule Club, one that is distinct from the regular CC. Current CC members could get dibs obviously on their own number, and the rest of us and interested parties could grab up the rest. Selection into the Mule Club could be ensured for forum members, maybe with some low post count to weed out flippers and relatives. I would hope that flippers would not bother or even dare sign up for the Mule Club and the forum just to get their hands on larger quantities to move on eBay, etc. What do you all think? I think this might work in lieu of folks joining the full CC, because I know I and many others couldn't handle that kind of financial commitment. I really like the idea of offering laser engraving of the forum name or your own forum name, but I would probably be fine with just the Mule Club number etched on it. Maybe we could send our old Mules in to also get numbered for a small fee.
It's better to be good than evil, but one achieves goodness at a terrific cost. ––– Stephen King
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RadioactiveSpyder
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- Location: Lost in space
I for one have zero desire to see the world filled with cheapo Mules.gaj999 wrote:All is not lost. Your post prompted this thought. Spyderco could produce a very large number of Mules out of the cheapest steel in China. They sell them to us at cost, say $10, with no etching, no limits, etc. Now anyone can etch any darn thing they want on it and sell it on the bay for whatever someone will pay. The only way to guarantee that you have a Mule in the advertised steel is to buy it from Spyderco directly. Everything else is probably fake and not even worth the cost of shipping. Oh, you need to publicize it widely, so no one who does their diligence gets screwed. All we need now is a shared laser etching machine, or someone willing to sell us time on one...
Gordon
It's better to be good than evil, but one achieves goodness at a terrific cost. ––– Stephen King
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araneae
- Member
- Posts: 5506
- Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:10 pm
- Location: A lil more south of the Erie shore, Ohio
Etching serial numbers, increasing production volume and limiting to one per person seem like the best ideas so far to me.
Forcing subscriptions or making a club to join seems like a bad idea. I have purchased 2 mules. Not every one can afford or even wants every mule made.
Forcing subscriptions or making a club to join seems like a bad idea. I have purchased 2 mules. Not every one can afford or even wants every mule made.
So many knives, so few pockets... :)
-Nick
Last in: N5 Magnacut
The "Spirit" of the design does not come through unless used. -Sal
-Nick
Last in: N5 Magnacut
The "Spirit" of the design does not come through unless used. -Sal
That was my first reaction, too. But think about it. If there really is demand at the prices we're seeing, it's going to happen anyway. Look at how difficult it is to fake a PM2, for example, compared to a Mule. If I was a Chinese counterfeiter, this would be irresistible. So, it's a given that the world will soon be flooded in cheap Mules, and the question becomes: If the world is flooded with cheap Mules, what effect does that really have on me? None. All of my Mules are users, I don't have any sitting in a safe where I'm going to worry about them losing value. I know that a lot of people do, but IMO, they're also subverting the program. We got the knives at cost. They're going to be worth more in the future, so you put one in the safe. Logical. But that keeps it out of the hands of users and any and all profit ends up in your pocket, not Spyderco's. You were given a gift with the idea that you would use it well. Doing otherwise isn't cool ... IMO, of course.RadioactiveSpyder wrote:I for one have zero desire to see the world filled with cheapo Mules.
Gordon
IMO Spyderco is not in the police or detective or judicial business. The problem is to try to ensure that afis, forumites, collectors, etc, (the "right" people) have a good shot at getting their mules, not IMO to judge and police wrongdoers (the "wrong" people). This could be done with pre-orders. Or, if it is just not feasible to do this far enough in advance of production completion, then it could be done with with a combination of pre-orders and a collector's club.
A collector's club alone is not a good solution because it does not take into account those among the "right" people who just want a particular steel, or two or three or four, or don't know yet how many steels they want, or are too young and/or poor to insure that they can make such a financial commitment.
If all the "right" people have a reasonable shot at their mules, who cares what the "wrong" people do? As pointed out by others, there is frequently a fine line between the "right" and "wrong" people. It is not realistic to try to police the whole world, fine tune the judgement of each purchaser, and punish the wrongdoers.
Personally I don't want my name engraved on anything but possibly a tombstone at some point
IMO after someone buys a mule it is their property to do with as they please or have to, because of the circumstances of life. Get real folks, this is not a religion, it's a hobby..... but, if the powers that be think engraving is best, I'll go along with it.
A collector's club alone is not a good solution because it does not take into account those among the "right" people who just want a particular steel, or two or three or four, or don't know yet how many steels they want, or are too young and/or poor to insure that they can make such a financial commitment.
If all the "right" people have a reasonable shot at their mules, who cares what the "wrong" people do? As pointed out by others, there is frequently a fine line between the "right" and "wrong" people. It is not realistic to try to police the whole world, fine tune the judgement of each purchaser, and punish the wrongdoers.
Personally I don't want my name engraved on anything but possibly a tombstone at some point
IMO after someone buys a mule it is their property to do with as they please or have to, because of the circumstances of life. Get real folks, this is not a religion, it's a hobby..... but, if the powers that be think engraving is best, I'll go along with it.K-390 on hand: Mule Team 17, Police 4 G-10, Endela (burlap micarta), Endela backup, Endura (canvas micarta), Straight Stretch (now blade-swapped with G-10 Stretch), Delica Wharncliffe, Dragonfly Wharncliffe, & Dragonfly Wharncliffe shorty mod
Note to self: Less is more.
Note to self: Less is more.
RadioactiveSpyder wrote:I'd like to chime in with David's (and others) thought in mind to have a Mule Club, one that is distinct from the regular CC. Current CC members could get dibs obviously on their own number, and the rest of us and interested parties could grab up the rest.
I'd totally be in for a Mule Club membership...or two.
This seems like a really good idea.dancer wrote:With that in mind, and given the roll-out is typically more than a year or 2, pre-registration and payment in advance makes it easier for people who are interested to order and wait, and more difficult for flippers to justify investment. we could pay 80% of the projected cost and top up the difference to the actual cost upon completion of the run.
Plus, it eliminates the "I had to work so I couldn't be on the website for the feeding frenzy" problems.
Assuming a knife is as hot as the last two, do you not think the preorders won't blow up the instant they open? It'll be the exact same scenario.TomAiello wrote:This seems like a really good idea.
Plus, it eliminates the "I had to work so I couldn't be on the website for the feeding frenzy" problems.
~David
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Pinetreebbs
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- Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 6:55 am
- Location: SC
I can easily live with this.anagarika wrote:...
Or combination of those factors ...
I'd say keep up the good work, a lot of the customers are happy for the chance to try the steel, rule of 2 max is ok (many will want one NIB & one user)
And lastly, let's remember, missing out a run is not a life & death situation ... So being sour about it won't be good for anyone ..
Opinion Box: On
Over time there have been many arguments about flipping and reselling, IMO most of them are a tempest in a teapot. Driven by people that want a great deal and feel entitled to getting everything they want with no or scant effort on their part, in a word, entitlement. These same people would never consider working for free or giving away their possessions without reasonable compensation, but are always willing to receive them without paying.
Opinion Box: Off
Have you joined Knife Rights yet?
Go to: http://www.KnifeRights.org
Protecting your Right to own and carry the knives YOU choose.
Go to: http://www.KnifeRights.org
Protecting your Right to own and carry the knives YOU choose.
The idea is that, if all the "right" people preorder, then all the right people have scored their knife (or two). If every one of us has has his or her knife, then what do we care if some of the "wrong" people get a few to sell to rich collectors or late comers? If we're effective enough at getting one to all the "right" people with preorders, then the would-be flippers may wind up eating some mules :)Evil D wrote:Doug how do preorders solve the problem when I can just have all my buddies who help me score 9 to begin with preorder with me?
Edit: this would have to be done long in advance so the production number could be adjusted to accommodate all preorderers.
K-390 on hand: Mule Team 17, Police 4 G-10, Endela (burlap micarta), Endela backup, Endura (canvas micarta), Straight Stretch (now blade-swapped with G-10 Stretch), Delica Wharncliffe, Dragonfly Wharncliffe, & Dragonfly Wharncliffe shorty mod
Note to self: Less is more.
Note to self: Less is more.
I really feel that raising the price and/or limiting the purchase amount to one wouldn't hinder any flipping much.
Maybe raising the price would some, but then we won't really be that much interested in them much either then would we? If i'm offered a knife with no handle for $200, I might pass.
I love the Mule Team series because I really enjoy using the different steels and most of all, creating handles for them.
Limiting the purchase amount to one per customer is just the same as having it at two, it would only make the flippers work a little harder.
The solutions to etch forum names and such onto the blades would add cost and time to each knife, and I don't think it would work out very well for Spyderco. Pre-ordering would help some, but like others have said, flippers can pre-order just as well as we can.
Heck, there are probably flippers reading this thread as we speak. They just finished up their satanic rituals and are now reading up on how to keep up with their profitability. 11 Forum members and 7 guests currently viewing... hmm...
I think to make it more difficult to purchase them (instead of just going to the website and ordering with a creditcard) would be a start to limit the flippy-ness.
A Mule Team Club, like some have discussed could work. And like i've mentioned above about pre-ordering... a flipper could even get into the Mule Team Club, but that would take a lot more effort than just going to the website and buying.
Maybe raising the price would some, but then we won't really be that much interested in them much either then would we? If i'm offered a knife with no handle for $200, I might pass.
I love the Mule Team series because I really enjoy using the different steels and most of all, creating handles for them.
Limiting the purchase amount to one per customer is just the same as having it at two, it would only make the flippers work a little harder.
The solutions to etch forum names and such onto the blades would add cost and time to each knife, and I don't think it would work out very well for Spyderco. Pre-ordering would help some, but like others have said, flippers can pre-order just as well as we can.
Heck, there are probably flippers reading this thread as we speak. They just finished up their satanic rituals and are now reading up on how to keep up with their profitability. 11 Forum members and 7 guests currently viewing... hmm...
I think to make it more difficult to purchase them (instead of just going to the website and ordering with a creditcard) would be a start to limit the flippy-ness.
A Mule Team Club, like some have discussed could work. And like i've mentioned above about pre-ordering... a flipper could even get into the Mule Team Club, but that would take a lot more effort than just going to the website and buying.
I really like how you're thinking. Way to keep your eye on the ball.DougC-3 wrote:The idea is that, if all the "right" people preorder, then all the right people have scored their knife (or two). If every one of us has has his or her knife, then what do we care if some of the "wrong" people get a few to sell to rich collectors or late comers? If we're effective enough at getting one to all the "right" people with preorders, then the would-be flippers may wind up eating some mules :)
Gordon