Chicago - a quick overview
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Chicago - a quick overview
Fairly small knife :
-Paramilitary
-SuperBlue Delica
-Meadowlark
-Chicago
Webpage : http://www.spyderco.ca/catalog/details.php?product=670
-440C stainless steel, 0.102" stock, 0.092" choil, full distal taper
-60 grams, handle heavy (center of middle scallop)
-edge is 0.014"/12.5 dps at choil, increases to 22 dps in the tip
440C reference : http://cartech.ides.com/datasheet.aspx?i=103&e=72
A few observations :
-no blade play
-slight movement of the clip
-all metal edges are well chamfered
-G10 is very nicely rounded
-liner has full engagement, secure under fast to moderate impacts
-clip is R/L, deep ride
F&F :
-in general high
-blade is off center
-plunge lines are not symmetrical
Sharpness :
-scrape shaves
-push cuts newsprint, 1/8" from PoH, rough
-175 (5) grams to push cut Espirit thread
-2.4 (2) cm to slice Bergia spinning thread (40 gram draw)
Those last two are under 50% of optimal on the push and 10% on the slice, the edge was likely over buffed.
The very high polish (the black parts) indicates that, ideally you want the buffing to be very light (well ideally you don't want to do it at all).
On 3/8" hemp :
-44 (1) lbs on a push
-32 (1) lbs on a 2" draw
These are low numbers, mainly a sharpness issue. Note the draw should be at a minimum half of the push or else the edge was rounded.
On 3/4" x 1/2" pine making points with heavy force (50-70 lbs) :
-Mora #1260 = 1.1 (1) slices
-Chicago = 0.8 (1) slices
The Chicago is significantly higher which would be expected because on deep cuts the mechanical advantage of the deep primary grind will show its benefit. However on shallow cutting on harder wood with lighter force (10-20 lbs) :
-Mora #1260 = 75 (5) slices
-Chicago = 210 (1) slices
In shallow cutting is it all about the edge angle and sharpness and the Mora (as a stock knife) is 9-11 dps with a finish from a Spyderco fine stone (fairly high polish, almost ideal for wood working).
It is easy to just see the difference in the shavings/chips from each knife (Mora on the left, Chicago on the right).
Easily cuts up a variety of materials :
-plastics
-tins
-foam
No edge damage. On the rigid foam there is some breaking, again a sign of the less than ideal sharpness.
Five hundred cuts into pine, no issues even cutting through some knots :
There were some minor ergonomic concerns :
The knife fits into my entire hand so the front of the clip and the base of the blade both hot spot a little, but not enough to make doing the 500 cuts an issue. In contrast for example a Leatherman Crater could not do 50 cuts without concern because it isn't chamfered.
Pointing plywood is no issue, 250 cuts :
The edge is still slicing newsprint but is not scratchy and very short draws have to be used.
Now how scratched up the bevel is compared to the original state.
In short, seems to well match the description/promotion :
"Its leaf-like shaped blade effectively cuts across the board, from significant strenuous cuts like carpet and poly rope to something as simple as fingernail cleaning or scraping tape off of glass.
A deep pocket clip burrows the knife down into a pant's pocket with the tip facing up ready to carry left- or right-handed. This one is for Chicagoans or anyone looking for a city/suit knife."
The only real issues are :
-less than ideal as-boxed sharpness
-variance in edge angle would likely cause problems for some
Of course this doesn't indicate all of these knives will be like that, just this one was.
This should be a nice knife to carry and use which should be fairly friendly for even non-knife people.
-Paramilitary
-SuperBlue Delica
-Meadowlark
-Chicago
Webpage : http://www.spyderco.ca/catalog/details.php?product=670
-440C stainless steel, 0.102" stock, 0.092" choil, full distal taper
-60 grams, handle heavy (center of middle scallop)
-edge is 0.014"/12.5 dps at choil, increases to 22 dps in the tip
440C reference : http://cartech.ides.com/datasheet.aspx?i=103&e=72
A few observations :
-no blade play
-slight movement of the clip
-all metal edges are well chamfered
-G10 is very nicely rounded
-liner has full engagement, secure under fast to moderate impacts
-clip is R/L, deep ride
F&F :
-in general high
-blade is off center
-plunge lines are not symmetrical
Sharpness :
-scrape shaves
-push cuts newsprint, 1/8" from PoH, rough
-175 (5) grams to push cut Espirit thread
-2.4 (2) cm to slice Bergia spinning thread (40 gram draw)
Those last two are under 50% of optimal on the push and 10% on the slice, the edge was likely over buffed.
The very high polish (the black parts) indicates that, ideally you want the buffing to be very light (well ideally you don't want to do it at all).
On 3/8" hemp :
-44 (1) lbs on a push
-32 (1) lbs on a 2" draw
These are low numbers, mainly a sharpness issue. Note the draw should be at a minimum half of the push or else the edge was rounded.
On 3/4" x 1/2" pine making points with heavy force (50-70 lbs) :
-Mora #1260 = 1.1 (1) slices
-Chicago = 0.8 (1) slices
The Chicago is significantly higher which would be expected because on deep cuts the mechanical advantage of the deep primary grind will show its benefit. However on shallow cutting on harder wood with lighter force (10-20 lbs) :
-Mora #1260 = 75 (5) slices
-Chicago = 210 (1) slices
In shallow cutting is it all about the edge angle and sharpness and the Mora (as a stock knife) is 9-11 dps with a finish from a Spyderco fine stone (fairly high polish, almost ideal for wood working).
It is easy to just see the difference in the shavings/chips from each knife (Mora on the left, Chicago on the right).
Easily cuts up a variety of materials :
-plastics
-tins
-foam
No edge damage. On the rigid foam there is some breaking, again a sign of the less than ideal sharpness.
Five hundred cuts into pine, no issues even cutting through some knots :
There were some minor ergonomic concerns :
The knife fits into my entire hand so the front of the clip and the base of the blade both hot spot a little, but not enough to make doing the 500 cuts an issue. In contrast for example a Leatherman Crater could not do 50 cuts without concern because it isn't chamfered.
Pointing plywood is no issue, 250 cuts :
The edge is still slicing newsprint but is not scratchy and very short draws have to be used.
Now how scratched up the bevel is compared to the original state.
In short, seems to well match the description/promotion :
"Its leaf-like shaped blade effectively cuts across the board, from significant strenuous cuts like carpet and poly rope to something as simple as fingernail cleaning or scraping tape off of glass.
A deep pocket clip burrows the knife down into a pant's pocket with the tip facing up ready to carry left- or right-handed. This one is for Chicagoans or anyone looking for a city/suit knife."
The only real issues are :
-less than ideal as-boxed sharpness
-variance in edge angle would likely cause problems for some
Of course this doesn't indicate all of these knives will be like that, just this one was.
This should be a nice knife to carry and use which should be fairly friendly for even non-knife people.
- Officer Gigglez
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- Location: Originally out of Arizona, currently live in Missouri.
Respectable knife. I also like my Ambitious, which fills the hand a bit more but lacks the nice wire clip.
K-390 on hand: Mule Team 17, Police 4 G-10, Endela (burlap micarta), Endela backup, Endura (canvas micarta), Straight Stretch (now blade-swapped with G-10 Stretch), Delica Wharncliffe, Dragonfly Wharncliffe, & Dragonfly Wharncliffe shorty mod
Note to self: Less is more.
Note to self: Less is more.
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It is an interesting little knife.
In the past I have used very large knives to do work not really suited to them, large brush blades to cut up a chicken, fillet a fish and otherwise just have fun. However it is just as enjoyable to use a small knife like this and make it primary carry for awhile.
Ok, it might not be the best for making a Rambo fantasy as you don't get to say "Hunting." in a melodramatic voice when people ask you why you are carrying it.
If it was not black it would be a little more friendly because for some reason people think black knives are more dangerous. But still it is nice to try out new techniques and stretch out your skills a little. Plus it makes for some amusing times if you get known as "the knife guy" and then you give this to someone when they ask you for a knife.
In the past I have used very large knives to do work not really suited to them, large brush blades to cut up a chicken, fillet a fish and otherwise just have fun. However it is just as enjoyable to use a small knife like this and make it primary carry for awhile.
Ok, it might not be the best for making a Rambo fantasy as you don't get to say "Hunting." in a melodramatic voice when people ask you why you are carrying it.
If it was not black it would be a little more friendly because for some reason people think black knives are more dangerous. But still it is nice to try out new techniques and stretch out your skills a little. Plus it makes for some amusing times if you get known as "the knife guy" and then you give this to someone when they ask you for a knife.
- defenestrate
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- this_is_nascar
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Re: Chicago - a quick overview
While writing up some notes on the Chicago, I am reviewing some papers on 440C. Here is some of the interesting/useful materials data on 440C :
from :
"Dry Sliding Wear Characteristics of AISI440C Martensitic Stainless Steel, Dararat Arparjirasakul, Tapany Patcharawit, and Usanee Kitkamthorn"
This shows maximum wear resistance at a 150C temper (maximum hardness).
"Influence of Deep Cryogenic Treatment on the Mechanical Properties of AISI 440C Bearing Steel A. Idayana, A.Gnanavelbabub*and K. Rajkumarc"
This looks at 440C austenized at 1010C, three different quench stopping points :
-room temperature (CHT)
-dry ice (SHT)
-liquid nitgoren (DHT)
(this is conventional, shallow and deep)
after an oil quench and then followed by a 200C temper.
They look at retained austenite, hardness and impact toughness :
CHT : 29% RA, 57 HRC : 2.4 J
SHT : 8% RA, 59 HRC : 2.2 J
DHT : 6% RA, 61 HRC : 2.0 J
Note that if you are going to use an extended quench, then it is likely that you might want to look at a higher austenization temperature, but note without oil and without an extended quench that RA will increase even more, hence why 440C often has a lower hardening temperature than what say Landes would recommend to maximize apex stability as he is assuming oil/liquid nitrogen.
from :
"Dry Sliding Wear Characteristics of AISI440C Martensitic Stainless Steel, Dararat Arparjirasakul, Tapany Patcharawit, and Usanee Kitkamthorn"
This shows maximum wear resistance at a 150C temper (maximum hardness).
"Influence of Deep Cryogenic Treatment on the Mechanical Properties of AISI 440C Bearing Steel A. Idayana, A.Gnanavelbabub*and K. Rajkumarc"
This looks at 440C austenized at 1010C, three different quench stopping points :
-room temperature (CHT)
-dry ice (SHT)
-liquid nitgoren (DHT)
(this is conventional, shallow and deep)
after an oil quench and then followed by a 200C temper.
They look at retained austenite, hardness and impact toughness :
CHT : 29% RA, 57 HRC : 2.4 J
SHT : 8% RA, 59 HRC : 2.2 J
DHT : 6% RA, 61 HRC : 2.0 J
Note that if you are going to use an extended quench, then it is likely that you might want to look at a higher austenization temperature, but note without oil and without an extended quench that RA will increase even more, hence why 440C often has a lower hardening temperature than what say Landes would recommend to maximize apex stability as he is assuming oil/liquid nitrogen.
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Re: Chicago - a quick overview
Here is one of the clearest comparisons of a high carbide and high apex stability steel, which compares 440C to an AEB-L type steel, from "Microstructure and Mechanical Properties of 0.63C-12.7Cr Martensitic Stainless Steel"
440M is what they call the 0.63C/12.7Cr steel which is in the same class as 440C. This they refer to as a modified version of 440C to remove the issues of the large carbides reducing performance.
The paper mainly shows the hardening response of both steels and notes that 440C has a harder secondary hardening, but with low tempers the 440M can still obtain sufficient hardness (60 HRC with a standard hardening).
440M is what they call the 0.63C/12.7Cr steel which is in the same class as 440C. This they refer to as a modified version of 440C to remove the issues of the large carbides reducing performance.
The paper mainly shows the hardening response of both steels and notes that 440C has a harder secondary hardening, but with low tempers the 440M can still obtain sufficient hardness (60 HRC with a standard hardening).
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Re: Chicago - a quick overview
This is a detailed comparison of 420 vs 440C, the results strongly reflect the difference between what the steel can achieve vs how often it is used based on its cost.
Ref : http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script= ... so&tlng=en
"Corrosion and microstructural characterization of martensitic stainless steels submitted to industrial thermal processes for use in surgical tools "
This is the composition, nothing exciting :
Here is likely the surprising part, look at the hardness which can be achieved in a < 0.25% carbon steel (420) :
Yes 440C is higher, but it is only higher by 1-2 HRC points, and both of them can achieve higher than 60 HRC.
Ref : http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script= ... so&tlng=en
"Corrosion and microstructural characterization of martensitic stainless steels submitted to industrial thermal processes for use in surgical tools "
This is the composition, nothing exciting :
This can be inferred from the phase diagrams which I noted earlier :Both
types of stainless steel contain in their chemical
composition a maximum (% by weight) of each element
as follows: manganese (Mn) 1.00%; phosphorus (P)
0.04%; sulphur (S) 0.03; silicon (Si) 1.00%. ASTM
420A steel has the following elemental composition:
carbon (C) 0.16-0.25%; chromium (Cr) 12.00-14.00%
and nickel (Ni) 1.00% while ASTM 440C steel contains
C 0.95-1.20%, Cr 16.00-18.00% and Mo 0.75%.
The peak
hardness of the 420A steel is reached at just above
the austenitizing temperature of 1050 °C.
The 440C steel has a higher hardness value than
the 420A steel at the austenitizing temperature of
1100 °C.
Here is likely the surprising part, look at the hardness which can be achieved in a < 0.25% carbon steel (420) :
Yes 440C is higher, but it is only higher by 1-2 HRC points, and both of them can achieve higher than 60 HRC.
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Re: Chicago - a quick overview
A little work sharpening the Chigago as I wanted to do a few edge retention runs on pine :
The knife had been used by a few friends and had a pretty significant apex bevel :
I needed to remove this and used the Suehiro Ryu #300, it took 150 pps to remove all traces of the apex bevel and even the edge out to 13/14 dps :
Here is a curious result, here is the exact same stone used on another knife with the same edge angle :
The bevel is much darker and shows a higher polish. This is the 10V Farid, I am curious is that is reflective of the higher carbide volume of the steel which is preventing deeper scratches of the stone which is alumina based which is softer than vanadium carbide.
The knife had been used by a few friends and had a pretty significant apex bevel :
I needed to remove this and used the Suehiro Ryu #300, it took 150 pps to remove all traces of the apex bevel and even the edge out to 13/14 dps :
Here is a curious result, here is the exact same stone used on another knife with the same edge angle :
The bevel is much darker and shows a higher polish. This is the 10V Farid, I am curious is that is reflective of the higher carbide volume of the steel which is preventing deeper scratches of the stone which is alumina based which is softer than vanadium carbide.
- jimmyjohnjohn
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Re: Chicago - a quick overview
Thanks much for the review.
- Tdhurl1103
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Re: Chicago - a quick overview
That was an awesome review. Thanks for putting in the time to do it. The steel information is, in particular, very appreciated by me. I like these types of reviews because they go way beyond, "the knife can cut things" and answers the "why and how" the knife can cut things.
The Chicago is not very visually appealing to me, however, I might pick up a Cat at some point.
The Chicago is not very visually appealing to me, however, I might pick up a Cat at some point.
Tom H
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Para 3, Gayle Bradley 1, Double Bevel, Paramilitary 2, Paramilitary 2 S110V, Sage 1, Persistence
Spydernation #327
Beckerhead #284
KA-BAR Krew #27
Para 3, Gayle Bradley 1, Double Bevel, Paramilitary 2, Paramilitary 2 S110V, Sage 1, Persistence
- Doc Dan
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Re: Chicago - a quick overview
Thanks for the review. I was wondering if I should buy one. I have a Cat and it came from the factory finished better than some of my far more expensive knives from Spyderco and Benchmade. It is one of my favorite pocket knifes (I took the clip off). Because it is so inexpensive it does not get the love it deserves, but mine is a fine knife for a small pocket knife.
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Follow the Christ, the King,
Live pure, speak true, right wrong, follow the King--
Else, wherefore born?" (Tennyson)
NRA Life Member
Spydernation 0050