Paypal questions

[Kev83]

I am in no way trying to buy and or sell on this forum but I do have a few questions about terms used when dealing with PayPal transactions. I've seen many people state on items "net to me" and "gift option only" . I am very new to the paypal/eBay type buying and was just wondering exactly in plain and simple terms what each means and what would the opposite of these type of sales be, to the point where they have to specify this certain way.

[jmh58]

If they wont take a USPS MO then thats the end of the sale for me.. Got screwed twice by pp and got hacked thru it once too.. John

[bdblue]

If you were going to sell me a knife for $100, I could hand you $100 cash, you hand me the knife and we are done- you have your $100 in hand. By mail I could mail you a money order for $100 and you are almost as well of as if you got the cash in person, you just have to go somewhere to cash the money order. But if I send you paypal for $100 then you only actually receive something like $97 in your paypal account. Paypal charges you a little bit for their part in the transaction, and you pay the $3 as a convenience. (I don't know the exact amount, something between 3% and 4% I believe.)

By specifying "net to me" or "gift option", the seller is saying that they don't want to pay for the convenience, they want the buyer to pay for the convenience. Since almost everybody pays with paypal these days I think the seller should build this into their asking price and never say anything more about it.

I think if you pay for goods via paypal, the seller pays the fees, and you have a recourse through paypal if you don't receive the goods. If you pay the fee and send the payment as a "gift", I'm not sure that you have a recourse if the deal goes bad so I refuse to do it that way. If it is a deal that I want and the seller says "net" or "gift", I add the estimated percentage onto the money that I'm sending to them. If I'm not that set on the deal then I will negotiate with them for the fee or I will refuse to buy it.

[Blerv]

When you "send a gift" there is no transaction fee. You are also essentially waiving all legal assistance from Paypal assuming the person is a thief. Most forums REQUIRE that all sellers take a "sale/purchase" from Paypal because it cuts down on nightmares.

If I'm feeling generous sometimes I'll throw in a few extra bucks to help with the 4% fee or whatever.

Edit: Reading bdblue's write-up it seems I said most of the same stuff :) .

[Donut]

The gift thing no longer waives the paypal fees. You get to choose if you pay the fees or if the person you're sending to pays the fees. Because of all the people doing this, Paypal now chooses to charge you to send a gift. *shrug*

You might want to notice that a seller requesting you to send payment as a gift surrenders your right to have Paypal help you return your money if the seller decides to be shady. I consider that suspect for a shady seller. Also, if they are selling something and want you to pay via the gift option, it is a violation of Paypal's terms of service. (I'm not sure which side is considered more wrong.)

They are telling you to lie to paypal. You fill out Paypal's questions and are filling in the wrong information per the seller's request. Basically, it is fraud.

It used to be that choosing gift would get rid of all paypal fees, so sellers wanted you to do that so they could use paypal without having to pay paypal for using their service.


What I normally do to get around this is if someone asks you to pay via gift, send it as goods and add a few dollars to cover paypal fees. You can tell them, "I don't want to send it as gift and I'm sending you money to cover the paypal fees."

[bh49]

The gift thing no longer waives the paypal fees.

Brian,
When did this happen? I sold few knives on BF just last week. One of the buyers used gift option. No fee were charged

You might want to notice that a seller requesting you to send payment as a gift surrenders your right to have Paypal help you return your money if the seller decides to be shady. I consider that suspect for a shady seller. Also, if they are selling something and want you to pay via the gift option, it is a violation of Paypal's terms of service.
They are telling you to lie to paypal. You fill out Paypal's questions and are filling in the wrong information per the seller's request. Basically, it is fraud.
It used to be that choosing gift would get rid of all paypal fees, so sellers wanted you to do that so they could use paypal without having to pay paypal for using their service.

This is all true, but I never saw add on the forums, where I am frequent, asking to use gift option. Mostly I saw seller giving choices pay paypal and add 3-4% to cover fees or use gift option to drop fees. Of course this is little grey area. Somebody have to pay for service.
When I sell on BF, I accepting MO, personal check. I would take paypal, but I do not want to eat fee and after that, this is up to buyer to choose payment method. Currently for me it doesn't make any difference.

[Pinetreebbs]

A few of points:

If a buyer wants to use PayPal or credit card services the buyer should pay for that convenience.

If a buyer is willing to send cash or a MO, why should that buyer have be forced to pay more by buyers that want all costs hidden in the price of the item?

If you want the protection of PayPal for your purchase by all means, use them, just pay for that service.

PayPal provides a service and should be able to make a buck for providing that service.

There is a difference between a collector selling a knife on a forum and a business, expect a difference in service and pricing.

We all need to examine our buying expectations and if necessary, bring them into line with reality. We all know of those buyers that are always returning items or have completely unrealistic expectations; they increase costs for everyone.

[xceptnl]

In my opinion and experience, the honesty shown by the seller with regards to their listing and their ability to accurately relay item condition can very very often override the need for buyer protection. I have yet to have a buyer come back to me because something was not as described. I personally don't have a problem allowing my buyers to add 3% to the agreed upon total or offering the gift option to them. I don't recall that PP makes you pay fees on the monies held in your account, only if I request the funds be sent to me in a form outside of PP. Also I believe IIRC the number of transactions in a month dictate if the fee is waived or not. I would have to read the latest PP regulations to be sure about that fact.

[Blerv]

I've never had a problem either. Still, anyone who specifically mentions they will only take a gift usually sends me elsewhere. Similar to those people who only tip 5% at a restaurant, it's just kinda...tacky :p .

[bh49]

Still, anyone who specifically mentions they will only take a gift usually sends me elsewhere.

I never saw such request, but agree, this sounds fishy.

[rodloos]

Some forums specifically require that the seller pay the Paypal fees, and prohibit ads which require the gift option (e.g. hammockforums.net). I prefer this approach. Other forums I frequent, it seems to be the norm to ask the buyer to use the "gift" option, which irritates me a bit. When I have purchased knives on that forum, I usually ask the seller if I can use the normal Paypal method and just add the 3.5% or whatever fee it is, usually they are OK with that.

I've never been able to bring myself to actually *sell* one of my knives, so I don't know about the receiving money via paypal aspect :) .

[bdblue]

If a buyer wants to use PayPal or credit card services the buyer should pay for that convenience.

If a buyer is willing to send cash or a MO, why should that buyer have be forced to pay more by buyers that want all costs hidden in the price of the item?

I think you are right but are there enough people that use MO for this to matter?

I think using PP is a convenience to the buyer AND to the seller, so the most fair thing would be for them to share in the fees. The sellers should recognize this and price their items accordingly. If all payments were by MO then that is to me more of a hardship for both sides. It is a serious inconvenience to me to have to go somewhere to buy a MO, and it would be an inconvenience to me to have to go somewhere to cash one.

[The Deacon]

Given the unpredictability of Customs in some countries, and PayPal's policy of not accepting proof of seizure by Customs as sufficient proof an item was sent, I can see sellers wanting to be paid via the gift option on overseas transactions. Aside from that scenario, I'd agree with most of the others that sellers who demand you use it should be avoided.

As for "net to me", I'd agree that it's somewhat tacky, but is it really any more so than posting two prices, one if you pay with a MO and a higher one if you use PayPal? Using a MO costs the sender money, not as much as PayPal fees unless the payment in question is for less than $50 or so, but it's not free. Plus, most of us still have to visit the PO to get one. Personally, I'd rather tack on 3%-4%. Seller gets his money faster and I get my item faster, so for me it's a win-win situation.

[Pinetreebbs]

I think you are right but are there enough people that use MO for this to matter?

I think using PP is a convenience to the buyer AND to the seller, so the most fair thing would be for them to share in the fees. The sellers should recognize this and price their items accordingly. If all payments were by MO then that is to me more of a hardship for both sides. It is a serious inconvenience to me to have to go somewhere to buy a MO, and it would be an inconvenience to me to have to go somewhere to cash one.

Well, MO buyers would be happy and sellers too since a MO is like cash. :) Using a USPS MO also gives some protection as well, mail fraud gets the attention of the postal police. Perhaps it would be better to offer a discount to a MO buyers. Some merchants do this for checks too. With electronic checking it's about as fast as using a debit card.

I have no problem using PayPal at all, well other than political issues, (Google them), as long as the buyer and the seller recognize that service cost money and a buyer that does not incur those costs should not be required to pay them.

[Kev83]

Wow thanks for all the great responses everyone! I'm clear on the terms now

[w3tnz]

Not that hard for the seller to do the math and incorporate the fees into the asking price, but that's still making the buyer pay for their convenience. Asking the buyer to pay gift and waive their rights is dishonest if not illegal, and would never deal with anyone presenting those terms, most B/S forums have banned that practice.

As for international customs, they are actually quite predictable, the variance is between countries not individual parcels.

[Pinetreebbs]

Just to be clear and to apologize if I sounded a bit curt about fees. Money matters, I like to pay cash for the things I buy. I save my money and pay the asking price without incurring interest payments. Yes I know merchants like to get funds quickly using credit cards, but the bank charges the merchant and those costs are passed on to the consumer. Because I pay cash whenever possible to avoid paying fees or interest on things and I save the merchant from paying them as well. That said, it's not my business if others wish to use credit cards and pay interest, I just don't care to pay a higher price when I am paying cash and not using those services. Savvy shoppers can find merchants with cash discounts and they usually have the best prices as well. Those same merchants might have no return policy and I am OK with that if I really know what I am getting. Fewer headaches for the merchant mean they can offer better prices.

Now, getting back to PayPal, I think it's fantastic for buying knives and many other things individual to individual. The fees are reasonable and if you need the protection for a new buyer or seller or perhaps one you have never dealt with before PayPal protections are nice. I also use the gift option to pay people I have done business with before and know I are reliable. I too would avoid dealing with a dealer that demands the gift option unless I happen to know them. Some sellers have been ripped off and are a little (too) cranky. :)

[JNewell]

You should be aware that an unscrupulous buyer can use PayPal's procedures to steal a knife (or whatever other article is being sold). There was a change in PayPal's policies a year or so back that allows the buyer to claim, falsely, that the knife was "significantly not as described" (I believe that's the PayPal phrase) and compel a refund, which PayPal will enforce without inquiry. Having refunded the money to the buyer, PayPal then takes no interest in whether the knife is actually returned to you or it its condition if it is actually returned. End result: the buyer keeps the knife and the cash. BTDT.

[Pinetreebbs]

You should be aware that an unscrupulous buyer can use PayPal's procedures to steal a knife (or whatever other article is being sold). There was a change in PayPal's policies a year or so back that allows the buyer to claim, falsely, that the knife was "significantly not as described" (I believe that's the PayPal phrase) and compel a refund, which PayPal will enforce without inquiry. Having refunded the money to the buyer, PayPal then takes no interest in whether the knife is actually returned to you or it its condition if it is actually returned. End result: the buyer keeps the knife and the cash. BTDT.

Man that would be rough. The problem is worse on eBay for sellers when a buyer uses 'negative feedback blackmail' to get reduced prices or refunds. We have all seen it on various forums too, a buyer will posts endless negative messages attempting to get a seller or maker to give them something for nothing. The people that do these things should be shunned at the very least and we all pay the cost of their thievery.

[JNewell]

I've had some of those on eBay, but I've never encountered outright theft, and I've been buying and selling there for 15 years. PayPal takes it to another level. You basically become a commercial merchant, with all of the associated risks, if you accept PayPal. And yes, I know that 99%+ of eBay transactions are also paid by PayPal, but my experience has been that eBay is actually a little fairer to sellers (not much, but some) than PayPal.