The infamous Edge Pro Apex!!!

[Forrest]

I was wondering if I should get the edge pro apex and if it is well worth the money spent... it is quite expensive and I can get my blades quite sharp already, but I am looking to do this more professionally, would this be considered a professional system? If I were to go into professional sharpening, would this be sufficient or is this system only really for personal use? I would love some good feedback on this good and bad, pros and cons, thank you very much for reading :cool:

[chuck_roxas45]

I have been using an apex for a few years now and I love the edges I can get with it BUT it takes quite a bit more time than it takes a proficient freehand sharpener.

[.357 mag]

I loved my EP but sold it after I learned freehand.

[kbuzbee]

You might also want to pop over the the Wicked Edge forum and read the posts on this topic. I know a few of the guys there are using their Wicked Edge setup "commercially". They seem to be doing okay.

One guy in particular seems to haul his gear over creation sharpening at fairs, markets, Whole Foods and such. I think he'd be a good resource for you.

Edit - here is a link to one of his posts:

http://www.wickededgeusa.com/index.php? ... Itemid=271

Ken

[jackknifeh]

I've never used the EP professional model so I can't provide a comparison. Hopefully someone here will say something about it. Another good forum to check out is chefknivestogo.com. Once on that site look under the resources tab for the forum. They have a thread dedicated to the EP. I think they have one for the WE also. The only thing I'll say about the EP pro system is it has a scissor attachment which is an extra attachment for about $125. It will not fit on the Apex. However you can clamp scissors to the Apex to sharpen them. I think you could use the Apex to sharpen knives professionally. With all these systems however just remember that like any tool you get better results after using it for a while. I'm going to talk about a couple of "tricks" that help put an edge on a knife that is about as sharp as any professional sharpener can put on a knife using any system (freehand, EP, WE, etc.) Having said that I have not seen everything and don't consider myself one of the best sharpeners in the world.

Key tips for getting a super edge:

1. Use extremly light strokes. The weight of the stone is more than enough pressure on the final strokes no matter what grit stone you are using.

2. Get the drill stop collar to help keeping a consistant angle when changing stones of different thicknesses. Understanding how stones of different thicknesses change the angle is essential.. ALONG WITH THIS TIP THE NEXT ONE IS EVEN MORE IMPORTANT IMO.

3. When you put a flat bevel on the edge at a given angle you want to keep the EP set to the EXACT SAME angle when changing stones. This is what I've experienced over and over after setting the angle by using the stop collar. I look at the scratch pattern created by the current stone to see if it is making contact with the entire bevel area. As often as not my new scratch pattern is only hitting a portion of the bevel, either at the bottom (edge) or at the top of the bevel. The amount of difference in the angle that the EP is now putting on the edge is possibly between .1 and .5 degrees different than the angle created by the previous stone. So what you need to do is manually adjust the angle by raising or lowering the angle a very tiny bit. Then do another couple of strokes to see if the entire bevel is being contacted with the stone. THIS FINE TUNING OF THE ANGLE IS ESSENTIAL WHEN USING THE FINER GRIT STONES. If the angle is slightly off when using coarser stones they will remove enough steel that they change the entire bevel angle with a couple of strokes. But stones in the 4k and higher grits remove such a tiny bit of metal with each stroke it would take MANY strokes and more time to remove steel until the new angle is created. You may be changing the angle from 18 degrees to 18.2 degrees. This angle change is not an issue. What is an issue is the amount of time you will spend trying to put a beautiful mirror finish on the bevels. Sorry to get long winded but I'm hoping people will understand this realizing the EP is capable of putting extremely accurate results because ANY angle can be set. Also, this accuracy is important with putting a micro bevel on the edge. By using very light strokes the EP can hone the edge to a truely shaving sharp edge. The extremely light strokes are also needed to remove a burr without creating another burr on the opposite side of the edge. By removing the burr and not straightening the burr the steel will apex at the edge with a crisp, very sharp edge that will stay sharp longer. If you want to you can also use balsa and/or leather strops on the edge. NEVER use a strop to remove a burr. NEVER strop until the burr is gone by using stones. Then you need to readjust the angle so the strop either matches perfectly or is just a tiny bit higher angle than is now on the edge. You will only be removing such a tiny bit of steel at this point that maintaining the correct angle is essential. Maintaining angle consistancy gets more difficcult as you use the higher grit stones and strops. If the angle isn't hitting the correct spot when using the higher grit tools and such a tiny bit of steel is removed it's easy to assume the stone/strop is not working. BUT when the angle is set correctly the improvement in the sharpness is wonderful. Actually though the knife is already arm hair shaving sharp before you EVER even think about stropping with the higher grit compounds or spray. I'm talking about sprays below 1 micron. Instead of saying the knife gets sharper I prefer to say the edge gets "crisper". The edge becomes one of those that when you go to touch the edge and move your thumb across the edge the steel seems like it reaches out to grab the skin. Ok, that's enough.

What I'm getting at is the EP is capable of being set up and maintaining the exact angle you need without the variation in angle you get when free hand sharpening. I've been working on my free hand skill also for about a year and have improved a lot. I can get the edges sharp with the crispness but if I do one more stroke and it isn't at the proper angle (being off by as little as .5 degrees) you can (I mean I can) ruin that crispy edge you had after the stroke before your last one. But since the EP will maintain the same angle the chance of this happening is much much less. I don't believe anyone can get this performance out of the EP for several weeks, maybe a few months of practicing. Also, getting tips from those who have been using one for a while. Improving faster is done by learning from other people's mistakes and experience.

So, if you want a sharpening system that is capable of getting the results anyone will be happy or satisfied with after paying you the EP is very capable of doing the job. The same edges can be achieved by free hand sharpening but it takes more practice because the hardest thing to control is a consistan angle througout each stroke and then repeating the stroke at the same angle. The EP takes care of this for you. I have to say though that there are few things that provide the satisfaction of getting a sharp, crisp edge by free hand sharpening. :)

Before you buy anything I recommend you select one that a lot of people like after using it for over two years and still like it. I like the EP more now than I did a year ago because I can get more accurate result as a result of becoming more familiar with the tool and how to use it. Then after you select a system (or free hand) keep working at it until you become very proficient and don't rush it or let frustration get you to thinking you could do better with another system. If you know the one you bought is a good one or if you chose to learn to free hand sharpening be assured the great results will come. No rush. Keep practicing. And I mean keep practicing by sharpening sharp knives all over again. Dull the edge and resharpen the knife. Or change the bevel and/or edge angle just so you can become more familiar with your chosen method. Buying a few cheap knives is a good ideal so you don't sharpen your $100+ knives until the blades are toothpicks. :)

Jack
PS
I just previewed my post and I don't have the energy to proofread it for spelling or even to see if what I wrote made sense. So if there is anything someone doesn't understand pleas let me know or ask. Also, don't count on my input 100%. What I like others may not like as much or disagree with completely.

[Forrest]

Thank you so much for your comment, this might sound ignorent, but what is a micro bur?

[kbuzbee]

Thank you so much for your comment, this might sound ignorent, but what is a micro bur?

At the risk of.... a burr that is very, very small

So here's the thing. Most folks who sharpen become aware that stones create a burr at the edge. They can feel it. But as you go to higher grits the burr they leave becomes too small to easily feel. Sharpening in a way that minimizes/reduces/removes the (micro)burr leaves a sharper, more stable edge.

One of (in my mind) the bigger advantages of th WEPS over the EP is you alternate strokes, so each stroke removes the burr started by the previous one.

Yeah, you can do this on an EP but you need to flip the blade every stroke, which has it's own issues (which can be minimized)

(can you tell we've had this discussion here before )

Good luck!

Ken

[jackknifeh]

Thank you so much for your comment, this might sound ignorent, but what is a micro bur?

At the risk of.... a burr that is very, very small

So here's the thing. Most folks who sharpen become aware that stones create a burr at the edge. They can feel it. But as you go to higher grits the burr they leave becomes too small to easily feel. Sharpening in a way that minimizes/reduces/removes the (micro)burr leaves a sharper, more stable edge.

One of (in my mind) the bigger advantages of th WEPS over the EP is you alternate strokes, so each stroke removes the burr started by the previous one.

Yeah, you can do this on an EP but you need to flip the blade every stroke, which has it's own issues (which can be minimized)

(can you tell we've had this discussion here before )

Good luck!

Ken

Ken is spot on in his post. A micro-burr is one so small it's VERY hard to detect by sliding your thumb or finger nail across the bevel and edge. If we leave a very tiny burr on the edge because we didn't detect it and then start using the knife the burr will snap off leaving the edge degraded. We can't see this with the naked eye. All we know is the edge isn't cutting as well. Then we (I) may think that particular steel doesn't have good edge retention when in fact the edge retention is reduced because of me leaving a burr on the edge because I didn't know it was there. Alternating strokes on the edge is a very effective way to reduce the creation of burrs. This is the best way IMO no matter what sharpening method you use. If you use a Sharpmaker, EP, WE, free hand, etc. if you create a tiny burr with on stroke on the right side of the edge and keep stroking the same side the burr gets bigger. If you create a burr then do a stroke on the other side the burr is removed. And to remove the burrs that you can't even see requires extremely light strokes alternating the edge side every stroke. A system like the WE that by design makes this easier is a big plus for that system. Since it is easier and faster we will do 5 strokes on one side then 5 strokes on the other. This is faster. If we save time by doing this we also may be taking more time to remove the burr that would not have been there if we flip the knife after every stroke. The key here is trying to save time is a waste of time. The only time that 5 or 10 strokes on one side then 5 or 10 strokes on the other side is acceptable is when re-profiling the edge by lowering the angle. Then you are not touching the edge. You are removing steel from the top so the bevel. In this case you will save time by not flipping the knife every stroke.

Another thing to strive for is to be able to feel the condition of the edge as you stroke the stone. We need to be able to feel if the bevel is making contact with the stone or is it the edge. To get the feel of this start a stroke and very slowly raise the spine as you stroke. When the edge apex makes contact with the edge you can feel it. The edge apex is where the two sides of the bevels meet. When these two sides meet in one spot and there is no burr the edge can be at a sharpness we (I) never knew was possible.

I have several times thought I was finally getting the edge as sharp as possible only to suddenly reach a higher level of sharpness 3 months later. If I had been able to feel the edge of a knife sharpened by a pro I would have known much earlier if my performance needed improvement. I sharpened a knife as best I could then mailed the knife to a pro for him to evaluate. After the evaluation and tips on how to improve he touched up the edge to the best of his ability and mailed it back to me. Then I could feel and use the edge that is at a sharpness level I should strive for. I also didn't use that knife. I kept it to use for comparing my edges to. There is a straight razor sharpener who charges $15 to mail me a razor for me to hone. Then I mailed it back for evaluation. I also bought a razor that was "shave ready" so I would know what the edge felt like. Comparing our results to edges created by higher skilled people is a very valuable indicator of our ability and where improvement is needed.

Jack

[Evil D]

I'll probably never use anything else. I used to really feel the need to perfect my freehanded technique, and I still do practice sometimes but for straight forward everyday sharpening I have it down to a science. I can usually bring a dull edge that won't cut your skin back to hair splitting sharp in under 5 minutes including setup time.

I see a lot of people make the argument that they're tedious to set up compared to freehand, but my opinion of that is, unless you're extremely good at freehand to the point that you consistently get perfect edges with very little effort, the extra time I may take setting up is more than made up for when I eliminate almost all human error and quickly reach an apex. If you're like me and you EDC the same knife daily for long periods without rotating, there really is no set up time because you set the angle and table once and it stays there until you move it. I just drop my blade down, make a few passes and I'm sharp again, with near perfect consistency.

[bh49]

I am looking to do this more professionally, would this be considered a professional system?

All depends how much money do you want to make. Frankly, I cannot see how anybody with manual system can compete with professional sharpener, who is using belt sander, paper wheels or any other motorized equipment and charging $4-5 for perfectly sharp knife.

[jackknifeh]

All depends how much money do you want to make. Frankly, I cannot see how anybody with manual system can compete with professional sharpener, who is using belt sander, paper wheels or any other motorized equipment and charging $4-5 for perfectly sharp knife.

The thought of sharpening for money has occurred to me. For an EDC pocket knife I may charge $5 just to get it sharp. But for a reprofile or mirror finish I'd charge more. Also it would depend on the number of blades. But for higher quality kitchen knives the price is around $20 per knife. However if you charge $20 to sharpen a knife it should be a very good job. Especially on a $200+ chef's knife and the like. Also you can't be accidentally putting scratches on the blade (or handle). I think what makes this a money maker is quantity. You would need stones that cut metal very fast to reduce the nuber of strokes to get the job done. A set of Shapton glass stones do great for the EP. There are also chosera's, Shapton pros, etc. I've also heard a standard for an average knife is $1 per inch. I would not sharpen a D'fly for $2. I would charge a minimum of $5 per knife. Unless one person sent me several knives. Then I would have some sort of quantity discount probably.

That's about as much thought I've put into it. I would definetely use the EP though. I have a set of Shapton glass stones for it with the lowest grit is 500. I would probably want a 320 or 220 if I were doing a lot of knives to increase speed.

Here is an example of two knife sharpeners on chefknivestogo.com. I've seen other ads also with about the same charges.
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/knife-sha ... -mail.html

[DougC-3]

I'd appreciate it if someone would post a couple of links to threads which compare the Edge Pro and Wicked Edge (or just the best general sharpening threads) -- the OP and others might find it useful too.

I briefly tried searching but was a little daunted when the first hit was a 140 page thread with 2783 posts, which, on the netbook I'm looking at now, would be over a third of a mile long ...and I can't seem to find a way to search within a single thread.

[Evil D]

I'd appreciate it if someone would post a couple of links to threads which compare the Edge Pro and Wicked Edge (or just the best general sharpening threads) -- the OP and others might find it useful too.

I briefly tried searching but was a little daunted when the first hit was a 140 page thread with 2783 posts, which, on the netbook I'm looking at now, would be over a third of a mile long ...and I can't seem to find a way to search within a single thread.

From what I've seen, it's basically a Ford vs. Chevy thing. My problem with the WE is that it still uses a clamp, and so still suffers the same issues that my Lansky had, which was my sole reason for buying the EP.

[Forrest]

Thank you all for being so friendly on this website! you are all so friendly and dont judge at all :) thank you for answering my noobie questions!

[jackknifeh]

I was wondering if I should get the edge pro apex and if it is well worth the money spent... it is quite expensive and I can get my blades quite sharp already, but I am looking to do this more professionally, would this be considered a professional system? If I were to go into professional sharpening, would this be sufficient or is this system only really for personal use? I would love some good feedback on this good and bad, pros and cons, thank you very much for reading :cool:

I'll try to keep this as short as possible. I promise. But sharpening for oneself and sharpening for people who pay you for your skill and time are two completely different things. Right now can you already get the super crisp razor edges professional chefs may demand? I'm guessing you can't and that is why you ask questions like the one starting this thread. I'll tell you my "learning to sharpen" story and based on that you can fiigure out where your skill is right now. Briefly my skill has come from being able to sharpen my pocket knives so they shave arm hair using two or three passes on the same spot to what it is now. I recently sent a knife I sharpened to a respected professional sharpener for evaluation. His only recommendation to make the knife cut better was to lower the bevel angles. He also said he didn't think he could get the very edge any sharper. Before he sent it back to me he touched it up on a .025 micron strop. It is super super sharp but not that much crisper than I am now getting. However, I use this knife as my goal and will not use it. The blade steel is K415KXP I think. That is stamped on the tang. The knife is a CRKT Ripple.

In my learning I started with a DMT aligner system. It's a good system like a Lansky. These are very good systems IMO but they have some limitations. Then I got an EP. I couldn't get the edges any sharper with the EP than I could with the aligner but my choice of angles is unlimited. I also had a problem clamping all blades in the proper position due to different blade and spine shapes. For these reasons the EP is better. So, if you have the money the EP (or WE) is better than the $50-$75 claming systems. So now that I had the EP I had one of the better systems available instead of sharpening free hand. All this was about 3-4 years ago. I'm going to guess and say 5 times I realized I was now getting my edges as sharp as was possible and was very happy. Then a little while later all of a sudden my edges would end up with a new (for me) level of sharpness. That proved that even the edge I was very happy with could be improved. This was using the EP. Also for the past 8-12 months I've been working on my free hand skill and have improved significantly with it. I can get the edges to have the same crisp sharpness as I can with the EP. HOWEVER, and this is a big however, I can ruin that crispness with one careless stroke across a stone. We know that angle control is one of the key factors in knife sharpening. The angle control IMO needs to be EVEN MORE ACCURATE when achieving AND KEEPING the crisp edge. One stroke can reduce the crispness as quickly as it could keep or improve it. What I am trying to say is that even though I can get sharp, crisp edge now free hand or using the EP I would choose the EP if I had to choose only one. The sharpening systems control the angle for you so learning them I believe is faster because you don't need the muscle memory and accuracy you need when free hand sharpening. The margin of error in angle accuracy is +/- 1 degree with professional sharpeners. That is what I've heard. Also I KNOW FOR A FACT that I CAN NOT put a flat bevel on the edge with the EP and maintain the flatness free hand. I'm not among the best sharpeners however so my skill is questionable. But this angle inaccuracy on the bevel is the same inaccuracy that I have when working on the very edge. As I said I can get the same sharp, crisp edge using the EP or free hand. But the EP is FAR MORE CONSISTANT in it's performance. The only real benifit I get from free hand sharpening is the satisfaction of using the old, proven method. But if I want a more controlled, accurate sharp, crisp edge I would always use the EP. This is my personal choice and is probably different than many others. It's a personal choice, that's all. But at my skill level now which is above average, I choose the EP.

Using different methods of sharpening is fine and you are a better sharpener if you can use different methods. But doing it professionally you will need as much control and accuracy and you can get. Remember, when doing anything for money you are obligated to meed the customer's expectations. Also, sharpening professionally you probably won't be only sharpening someone's pocket knives. In most cases pocket knife users have lower expectations than professional (or hobby) chefs. I believe if you are not getting the super sharp, crisp edges now you should get the EP or WE and focus on that system. They do get the super sharp, crisp edges and remove much of the error potential that comes with free hand. The error potential is angle control and consistancy. I can't comment on the WE because I've never used one. I believe Ken has or has used both and understands the pros and cons of both.

Starting today if you work on your free hand skill in one year your edges will be super sharp, crisp edges. In addition to practice this may require asking for help and tips from other skilled free hand sharpeners. The same can be said of using the EP. But if you work on mastering both systems it may take longer. I'm not saying don't learn both. I just think when learning something it's best to stick with one method until you "get it" and then try another method.

No matter what method you select I believe one thing is key. You need to be able to picture what is happening during a stroke AND you need to be able to feel it happening in your hands and arms. The "feeling" aspect is hard to understand until you can feel it. Right now I can stroke (using free hand) and I can feel when the blade is touching the stone on the bevel, on the edge, etc. And if on the edge I can feel if I'm removing a burr or if the edge has no burr. I "feel" the edge at a level consistant with my skill at the moment. I'm sure more experienced sharpeners can "feel" smaller burrs than I can and other aspects as well. Also, I'm talking as if I consider myself a sharpening master. I do now. My skill is much higher than it was 4 years ago. That's all. And the biggest improvement has happened in the past 8 months. Based on my experiences of thinking I have had VERY sharp edges I'm assuming I still have more improvement coming.

To answer your specific question I believe the EP Apex is very capable of sharpening knives/scissors at a professional level. There are two other systems you should also check out. The Wicked Edge and the Edge Pal. The Edge Pal is not widely known about as it is not mass produced. It is mand by hand by one guy. Also they are made to order to your specifications. It's accuracy is said to be good enough to put different bevels on an edge with only a .01 degree of accuracy. When I first read that I thought the guy was lying or there was a misprint. I questioned him and he confirmed he means angle differences of 1/100th of a degree. After talking some more about it I believe it. Of course this level of accuracy is not needed for any knife edge (and he agrees) that doesn't mean someone can't develop a tool to achieve it. After all, we go to the moon these days any time we want to. Going to Jupiter however, requires a bit of planning. :) I believe if the tool is capable of this it would also requre learning to use the tool better over time. Just like any tool. Google Edge Pal as I don't remember the web site. One thing about the Edge Pal that is WONDERFUL is it can use the stones you already own up to 8" long. The EP and WE are somewhat limited in the stone size. I have used stones between 4" and 6" on my EP but longer than 6" is almost impossible. I don't know about the EP professional model. The price of the Edge Pal is pretty high considering it's price is about as high or a little higher than the EP or WE without any stones. I don't think stones come with it since it can use stones you already own. Might be wrong about that.

Good luck in your choice and sharpening whatever you choose.

Jack

PS edit: I broke my promise. Sorry. :)