The Two Sides of Flippers

[chuck_roxas45]

Yup, I'm inclined to believe that most people who sell more than one sprint immediately after getting it, and at a sizeable price jump($50 or more) are trading just to profit.

[mainaman]

I do not like them flippers.
I want to get a Sprint run and use it. If I would ever consider flipping a blade, I'd sit on it for at least 5 years , then may be it will be worth something extra. Ultimately Spyderco is the entity that can fix things, just make enough of each run to satisfy the demands and all is good.

[bh49]

Ultimately Spyderco is the entity that can fix things, just make enough of each run to satisfy the demands and all is good.

This is not that simple. There were sprints, which were sitting on dealers shelves for a year and sold on clearance at loss. Nobody can know the magic number in advance. C54 Calypso would be a good example. People were begging Sal for this knife for ages. It was released in the begging of the year and still can be found at the same price. JD Smith and Shabaria would be others. There are more.
It looks like mostly people go crazy with Golden runs, which have better wear resistant steels. May be adding to production one of Golden popular models with one of more wear resistant steels with bring insanity down a little, but may be not. I do not think that everybody who is absolutely dying to get "this" sprint will be able to tell the difference in a blind test. I strongly believe this is just a cool factor for most, not everybody, but most. I remember well how it was in 2006 with ZDP Calypso and than Delica. Making ZDP Delica production knife helped.

[akaAK]

First world problems.

I could care less what other people do with their money, I have missed out on a number of knives (sprints and dealer exclusives) and never once thought to blame others for it. If I can't get it on release from a reputable dealer or am unwilling to pay an inflated secondary market price that is my issue.

"flippers" provide a good market to soak up some of the less popular knives, which allows spyderco to avoid taking a total bath, how come no one complains about that? In those cases the flippers take the bath.

It makes people feel better to lay blame rather than look at the reality of the situation.

[Evil D]

Yup, I'm inclined to believe that most people who sell more than one sprint immediately after getting it, and at a sizeable price jump($50 or more) are trading just to profit.

Exactly, and the rational that they're not making enough money to justify the effort is total crap, otherwise why would it be happening? I don't really think hanging out on the internet waiting for a buyer and then shipping it in the mail is too much effort for a $50+ profit. Suffice to say with the two knife limit on most of these, and with how hot some of them sell on the secondary market, people are at least buying two and reselling the second one at a huge profit and making back the money they spent on the first one getting it for free. Yeah, we can also blame the buyers for paying that much, but then they're sort of left with no choice too. I can understand when a person just shows up way late to the order and doesn't even fight to get in line for theirs, this happened to me and my 20CP Para 2 and I ended up paying about $40 over street price but I thought that was pretty reasonable. If a person is in line and just misses out, it's pretty crappy that they have to buy from that flipper who's just raping them to make their own profit. Justifying this by saying this is market economics doesn't really make it any better, that just means there are people with this mentality all over the place and that doesn't justify it to me. Like I originally said, it is what it is and it'll never change so I don't let it bother me too much, and I just get in line if I want a knife that bad and I do what I can to make sure I get one for a good price, otherwise I just move on. I would've liked to get the Cruwear Military but I'm a cheap *** and it isn't worth the inflated prices to me (not like the 20CP was).

[Blerv]

Spyderco could just as easily increase a sprint run from 600 to 1200, or 1200 to 2400.

While this isn't something you can predict like with the Jot sprint, most Para's and Military's should be possible. They could also increase the MSRP which seems to have an effect on the profitability of flipping.

I figured the Forum Knife would be subject to the nightmares of the system. Funny enough they made plenty. Instead of hating those without any morals ( ), let's just hope Spyderco makes more knives. It's in their best interest to efficiently profit on each run...I'm sure they are doing their best :) .

[Evil D]

Spyderco could just as easily increase a sprint run from 600 to 1200, or 1200 to 2400.

While this isn't something you can predict like with the Jot sprint, most Para's and Military's should be possible. They could also increase the MSRP which seems to have an effect on the profitability of flipping.

I figured the Forum Knife would be subject to the nightmares of the system. Funny enough they made plenty. Instead of hating those without any morals ( ), let's just hope Spyderco makes more knives. It's in their best interest to efficiently profit on each run...I'm sure they are doing their best :) .

I don't hate anyone...Part of me doesn't blame people for making a buck where they can, especially if like we've said if people are willing to pay it then why not? The part that bothers me is the idea that somewhere there's a diehard dedicated collector/user who missed out on his grail and now has to shell out a boat load of money to get what he wants, while that other person couldn't give a rat's *** about the knife and just wants to make money.

I wonder....everyone in here who justifies this mentality, do you also feel that the price of gas today is fair? Do you sit at the pump paying whatever crazy prices you pay and say to yourself "well that's market economics, I can't blame the oil industry for charging this much because idiots like me are willing to pay it"?

[akaAK]

Interesting point about gas prices Evil. My last car purchase was a relqatively fuel efficeint one, I take public transportation when I can and try to avoid needless or pointless driving. My consumption of the product is the only thing I can control inthat scenario. The price of gas is actually lower than what it should be, if you take into account the actual costs associated with the use of fossil fuels, north american drivers don't pay the full price. Buy gas in europe and then see if you still have an issue with north american gas prices.

I don't agree with the mentality behind flipping, so I don't. That is personal. If I needed to put food on the table I probably wouldn't have as much of a personal issue with it. From an economic or market perspective, this is how it is.

[Evil D]

Interesting point about gas prices Evil. My last car purchase was a relqatively fuel efficeint one, I take public transportation when I can and try to avoid needless or pointless driving. My consumption of the product is the only thing I can control inthat scenario. The price of gas is actually lower than what it should be, if you take into account the actual costs associated with the use of fossil fuels, north american drivers don't pay the full price. Buy gas in europe and then see if you still have an issue with north american gas prices.

I don't agree with the mentality behind flipping, so I don't. That is personal. If I needed to put food on the table I probably wouldn't have as much of a personal issue with it. From an economic or market perspective, this is how it is.

Oh yeah we definitely have it a lot easier than other countries.

I'm really torn on all of this, because part of me does agree that something is only worth what someone is willing to pay. The difference between a knife and gas is that for many people gas is a mandatory part of life, whereas you don't HAVE to buy that sprint knife.

[akaAK]

Fair enough Evil, I am in the same boat as you.

Not sure what the solution is. The whole want vs need issue is one that seems to be forgotten too easily these days. If you fall into the advertising, peer pressure trap, lots of things become "needs". I have caught myself thinking like this.

I would say more (quantity) knives would be the solution but that exposes spyderco to the risk.

[Jay_Ev]

This is not that simple. There were sprints, which were sitting on dealers shelves for a year and sold on clearance at loss.

I would say more (quantity) knives would be the solution but that exposes spyderco to the risk.

Everyone on these forums always brings this up and every time I always find myself asking "what's the rush, what's the urgency to sell all these knives so quickly?" Are we saying that if a knife doesn't instantly sell out in 2 days then it is deemed a failure? So what if it sits on a dealers shelf or website for 3-6 months, or even a year. Eventually it will sell. I fail to understand this mentality that a given sprint run must sell out instantly, right away.

[akaAK]

Please don't take this as me understanding the inner workings of this business. My thoughts only.

If sprint knives sit on shelves a couple of things could happen. Money tied up in these sprints (dealers and spyderco) can't be used to fund new production or innovation. If spyderco can't move the knives they may restrict how many sprints they put out.

The issue is knives like the JD Smith sprint which is still available. How long can a dealer sit on these before they start adjusting their orders of sprints? I imagine the margins on knives are not has wide as we think when you take into account dealers costs.

[bdblue]

I loosely followed official cruware millie thread and was pretty easily able to score one at $138+ shipping, wasn't too hard.

I'm on the threads multiple times every day and have yet to find a retailer with the knife in stock. I have to work for a living and I have no internet access at work except sometimes during lunch. When people post that a dealer has them in stock, it seems to be that the last about 5 minutes. I read about it a few hours later and they are long gone.

There's no way that "flippers" could get enough of these to make it worthwhile. The hourly rate would only be better than actual unemployment.

I don't know how much the flippers are making hourly, but there is enough profit that they do it and they do it very aggressively. Maybe those people don't have full time jobs, maybe they sit at home buying all manner of things to flip- knives, guitars, car parts, whatever.

But the 1x/customer is the solution to "flipping." It just means you have to work twice as hard if you want a spare/backup, but that's do-able.

The flippers have ways around that. I've seen people post ads on other forums selling 4 knives at a time. Someone here has mentioned the ebay seller that has sold 10 or more. I've always been suspicious that the flippers have ways to work the system better than we have. Before any retailer announced that they had the knives in stock, before anybody posted here that they had received shipping notice, the flippers already had the knives up for sale on ebay, and lots of them. I don't want to say that there are employees sneaking the knives out the back door, or retailers selling to their buddies before they release knives for sale to their internet customers, but the reality of how the knives become available certainly would make a person suspicious.

The way the cru-wear militaries are trickling out a few at a time, the flippers have better than average odds of scooping up all of them. They can sit there and wait and grab the few that become available before the average buyer even knows that they are available. If they were all released for sale at the same time at least the average buyers could get a few of them. As it is the number of people that have posted here that they got their knives is a lot less than the numbers that the ebay sellers have sold.


I'm still looking for one, haven't found one yet, so I'm carrying my GB today.


I checked into the other sprints that were mentioned as staying in stock- Calypso, Smith and Shabaria. I found the Calypso but it is just a standard Japanese model with VG10 and it's a lockback knife. It could never have the popularity of a Para2 or Military, plus it was priced as high as the cruwear military. I could not find any information on the Smith. The Shabaria is another Japanese model, and a very odd style. It is just not my taste so I would not buy one no matter what the blade steel. I would not be good at predicting popularity of sprints except that it is pretty obvious you can sell as many Para2 or Military sprints as you can make.

[FCM415]

First world problems.

May be true but the thread was opened by someone wanting feedback/opinions on the matter. You don't think third world countries don't have hobbies with petty issues they fight over? It's all relative and bringing that up doesn't give you any high ground for recognizing it as such.

I could care less what other people do with their money, I have missed out on a number of knives (sprints and dealer exclusives) and never once thought to blame others for it. If I can't get it on release from a reputable dealer or am unwilling to pay an inflated secondary market price that is my issue.

That's a good way of going about it, but everyone is different. Whatever works for you. Some people do get ticked off when theyre favorite knife theyve been looking forward to got sold out while they are at work and the next day its magically $300. Yeah, want versus need, but its the fist world right? Free market, FREE to have opinions.

"flippers" provide a good market to soak up some of the less popular knives, which allows spyderco to avoid taking a total bath, how come no one complains about that? In those cases the flippers take the bath.

That's a good thing when flippers take a bath. It makes them think twice about buying 10 Jot Singh Khalas next time and perhaps other sprints. Like JayEv said, what so bad about a knife taking more than 1 day to sell out? 6 months? 2 years? Flippers know not to buy 10 Jot Singh Khalsas, you'd make a bad flipper lol. They know what they're doing.

It makes people feel better to lay blame rather than look at the reality of the situation.

Which reality of the situation? It's spelled out for you on this thread what people aren't thrilled with. A hot knife (dont play dumb, not a Goddard sprint or whatever obscure knife you quote...It's PM2, Manix2, Millie, CF Sprints, Superblue, etc.) Is sold out the same day it comes out and the very next day they are on Ebay for "twice" the price. Yes it's not illegal free market yadadada, but is it ok for some people to not be too thrilled about it? Are we entitled to our opinions in this first world setting we live in? Those slots could have gone to an end user instead of going to someone with NO INTEREST in the knife whatsoever and had no desire on keeping it. Again it's legit, again, you can't expect everyone to be all gung ho about it. Myself and many others have expressed that "that's just the way it is, we just deal with it/accept it". No one came out to moan about this, it was the topic for debate from the OP.

[JNewell]

I'm on the threads multiple times every day and have yet to find a retailer with the knife in stock. I have to work for a living and I have no internet access at work except sometimes during lunch. When people post that a dealer has them in stock, it seems to be that the last about 5 minutes. I read about it a few hours later and they are long gone.




I don't know how much the flippers are making hourly, but there is enough profit that they do it and they do it very aggressively. Maybe those people don't have full time jobs, maybe they sit at home buying all manner of things to flip- knives, guitars, car parts, whatever.




The flippers have ways around that. I've seen people post ads on other forums selling 4 knives at a time. Someone here has mentioned the ebay seller that has sold 10 or more. I've always been suspicious that the flippers have ways to work the system better than we have. Before any retailer announced that they had the knives in stock, before anybody posted here that they had received shipping notice, the flippers already had the knives up for sale on ebay, and lots of them. I don't want to say that there are employees sneaking the knives out the back door, or retailers selling to their buddies before they release knives for sale to their internet customers, but the reality of how the knives become available certainly would make a person suspicious.

The way the cru-wear militaries are trickling out a few at a time, the flippers have better than average odds of scooping up all of them. They can sit there and wait and grab the few that become available before the average buyer even knows that they are available. If they were all released for sale at the same time at least the average buyers could get a few of them. As it is the number of people that have posted here that they got their knives is a lot less than the numbers that the ebay sellers have sold.


I'm still looking for one, haven't found one yet, so I'm carrying my GB today.


I checked into the other sprints that were mentioned as staying in stock- Calypso, Smith and Shabaria. I found the Calypso but it is just a standard Japanese model with VG10 and it's a lockback knife. It could never have the popularity of a Para2 or Military, plus it was priced as high as the cruwear military. I could not find any information on the Smith. The Shabaria is another Japanese model, and a very odd style. It is just not my taste so I would not buy one no matter what the blade steel. I would not be good at predicting popularity of sprints except that it is pretty obvious you can sell as many Para2 or Military sprints as you can make.

The eBay seller who had 10 might be a dealer. We know that many dealers sell at prices other than the usual street discount.

[FCM415]

Please don't take this as me understanding the inner workings of this business. My thoughts only.

If sprint knives sit on shelves a couple of things could happen. Money tied up in these sprints (dealers and spyderco) can't be used to fund new production or innovation. If spyderco can't move the knives they may restrict how many sprints they put out.

The issue is knives like the JD Smith sprint which is still available. How long can a dealer sit on these before they start adjusting their orders of sprints? I imagine the margins on knives are not has wide as we think when you take into account dealers costs.

Alright, I know you are supporting your positions on the matter but a JD Smith sprint as an example? Even flippers reading this right now must be laughing at that. I know one thing, you'd probably make for a not so good flipper hehe. We're talking about PM2's, Millies, SB's, CF's, etc. Not Jot Singh Khalsas and Goddards. There is nothing wrong with those knives sitting for awhile. Why is that so bad? I bet there's a bunch of Dominos sitting on shelves right now PURCHASED by dealers, so what it will sell. Have any idea what will happen when the fluted PM2's come out? Yeah those will sit on the shelf alright :rolleyes: and that's what we are talking about here.

We're not thrilled with the 2ndary market scalping. Not our style. Raising prices to cull demand is also not our style. I think coming up with the right number to make would be the best solution. We are, after all, trying to serve our customers. We'll keep increasing production on those sprints that we think could be a problem.

I do appreciate all of the kind comments, thanx much. In time, we should, with your help, be able to sort it.

sal

I shared this on the first page, but people here keep rambling about what ifs and ignored my blocks of text lol. Read it.

In the end, those of you who are scolding us for "hating evil flippers" need to get over yourselves. Like Sal, all we are saying is that we aren't thrilled about it. An opinion, something we are entitled to.

[FCM415]

First world problems.

May be true but the thread was opened by someone wanting feedback/opinions on the matter. You don't think third world countries don't have hobbies with petty issues they fight over? It's all relative and bringing that up doesn't give you any high ground for recognizing it as such.

I could care less what other people do with their money, I have missed out on a number of knives (sprints and dealer exclusives) and never once thought to blame others for it. If I can't get it on release from a reputable dealer or am unwilling to pay an inflated secondary market price that is my issue.

That's a good way of going about it, but everyone is different. Whatever works for you. Some people do get ticked off when theyre favorite knife theyve been looking forward to got sold out while they are at work and the next day its magically $300. Yeah, want versus need, but its the fist world right? Free market, FREE to have opinions.

"flippers" provide a good market to soak up some of the less popular knives, which allows spyderco to avoid taking a total bath, how come no one complains about that? In those cases the flippers take the bath.

That's a good thing when flippers take a bath. It makes them think twice about buying 10 Jot Singh Khalas next time and perhaps other sprints. Like JayEv said, what so bad about a knife taking more than 1 day to sell out? 6 months? 2 years? Flippers know not to buy 10 Jot Singh Khalsas, you'd make a bad flipper lol. They know what they're doing.

It makes people feel better to lay blame rather than look at the reality of the situation.

Which reality of the situation? It's spelled out for you on this thread what people aren't thrilled with. A hot knife (dont play dumb, not a Goddard sprint or whatever obscure knife you quote...It's PM2, Manix2, Millie, CF Sprints, Superblue, etc.) Is sold out the same day it comes out and the very next day they are on Ebay for "twice" the price. Yes it's not illegal free market yadadada, but is it ok for some people to not be too thrilled about it? Are we entitled to our opinions in this first world setting we live in? Those slots could have gone to an end user instead of going to someone with NO INTEREST in the knife whatsoever and had no desire on keeping it. Again it's legit, again, you can't expect everyone to be all gung ho about it. Myself and many others have expressed that "that's just the way it is, we just deal with it/accept it". No one came out to moan about this, it was the topic for debate from the OP.

[Donut]

I remember well how it was in 2006 with ZDP Calypso and than Delica.

Roman, don't tell me there was a ZDP version of the Full size Calypso. Please tell me you mean the Caly Jr.


Flippers are good for me. Flippers buy all the sprints, then the people on the forum complain and ask for more sprints, and I end up getting more sprint runs because of the flippers. :)

[Donut]

I consider the whole sprint run thing to be pretty amazing. I had my eye on a Full Size Calypso for a few years and never wanted to pay $300 for one. It seems like if you want an older model bad enough, you can be patient and wait for a sprint.

I consider myself very fortunate to have a G-10, lined Calypso. The thing is a beauty to me! The fact that I paid less than half of $300 for it is icing on the cake.

I didn't watch to see if the original Calypso pricing has changed since the release of the sprint run.

[akaAK]

FCM - Unfortunately you don't understand what the term means. But just jump in with both feet.

As usual only you are entitled to an opinion. Your involvement and attitude in these threads usually lead them to be locked which is unfortunate as it has been a good debate.

On that note I will walk away, pointless.