Thinking about getting an ASP for carry. Flashlight(Minimag) doesn't have enough weight if I have to do contact, and the 2d is a bit heavy for belt carry 24/7.
Concealing isn't a concern, they're legal up here so I'll stick it in a belt sheath and not worry about that(most ppl would assume it's a 'light anyways). Just wondering if the 21's reach and a little extra weight is worth it.
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ASP... 16 or 21?
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vampyrewolf
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VW,
I spoke to a martials arts instructor out west here, and he explained that there is a huge advantage in effectiveness to the 21" over the 16". This guy carries one all the time, teaches people how to use them, etc.
I currently have a 16" one, but I'm planning to buy a 21" and test for myself.
Jeff/1911.
Edited by - Jeff/1911 on 9/13/2003 11:11:21 PM
I spoke to a martials arts instructor out west here, and he explained that there is a huge advantage in effectiveness to the 21" over the 16". This guy carries one all the time, teaches people how to use them, etc.
I currently have a 16" one, but I'm planning to buy a 21" and test for myself.
Jeff/1911.
Edited by - Jeff/1911 on 9/13/2003 11:11:21 PM
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vampyrewolf
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Jeff,
Simple physics with Mass, Velocity(taking into consideration added mass and length), and the resultant kenetic energy... the 21 is superior.
one thing thats sticking out in my mind is if you can get the 16 swinging faster and have faster turnaround on your swing, over the 21.
what's your opinion on that?
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Simple physics with Mass, Velocity(taking into consideration added mass and length), and the resultant kenetic energy... the 21 is superior.
one thing thats sticking out in my mind is if you can get the 16 swinging faster and have faster turnaround on your swing, over the 21.
what's your opinion on that?
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I'm required to carry a 21" on duty, and have carried a 16" in soft clothes. Between the two, the 21" is definitely the way to go. You may want to try the 21" lightweight version as well.
The 26" is a whole lot more whallop as well.
At the end of the day, I still prefer the CRMIPT to any/all of the above for for carry on and off duty.
Steve
The 26" is a whole lot more whallop as well.
At the end of the day, I still prefer the CRMIPT to any/all of the above for for carry on and off duty.
Steve
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vampyrewolf
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Steve> Any problems with ASPs bending or having failures? I hear the lightweight 16s bend(over on BFC, Tactics & Training, spent about 2hrs reading from a search), but nit a lot on the lightweights otherwise.
most likely go with the normal one, as thats what the local carries.
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most likely go with the normal one, as thats what the local carries.
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For regular usage, the standard weights will hold up better, but the reality is that you'll be carrying the thing far more than you use it. In fact, you may never have to use it. Try them all before you make a final decision, and determine exactly how the thing will be put to work.
Your skill level is more important than any tool that you choose. They'll all work fine given the right application.
Steve
Edited by - sks on 9/14/2003 6:38:56 PM
Your skill level is more important than any tool that you choose. They'll all work fine given the right application.
Steve
Edited by - sks on 9/14/2003 6:38:56 PM
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vampyrewolf
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The main reason for getting one is jogging defense. I quite jogging for a while because I was getting tired of the groups of 4-5 punks, ages 16-17 usually. I live 2 blocks from a highschool, and go for 2-3km jogs then walk back.
I have had to make contact with a few of them, and I was looking for something better than my 2d mag. Last encounter took 2: a shoulder(side of neck) and a leg shot to get out of.
I am looking at getting into ecrisma(sp?) and learning dual baton work, which the 21" is closest to standard rattan sticks.
I don't plan to need them or the heavy training, but will be nice to have.
When I jog I carry my fixed, cell, flashlight, and $20 cash. Hope to be able to drop the fixed and light as options on my jogs.
edit: spelling
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Edited by - vampyrewolf on 9/14/2003 7:32:38 PM
I have had to make contact with a few of them, and I was looking for something better than my 2d mag. Last encounter took 2: a shoulder(side of neck) and a leg shot to get out of.
I am looking at getting into ecrisma(sp?) and learning dual baton work, which the 21" is closest to standard rattan sticks.
I don't plan to need them or the heavy training, but will be nice to have.
When I jog I carry my fixed, cell, flashlight, and $20 cash. Hope to be able to drop the fixed and light as options on my jogs.
edit: spelling
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Edited by - vampyrewolf on 9/14/2003 7:32:38 PM
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travis quaas
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vampyrewolf,
I was under the same situation as you. Years ago I purchased a 16" steel ASP. Mind you, I didn't have any training at the time on how to use it. For that matter, I am only beginning to learn the basic of basic stick work as taught by Mr. Janich.
When I purchased the 16", I was trying to get a compact tool to defend myself. The darn thing was heavy. But, I have to tell you...I didn't know enough at the time to make the right choice. I thought the heavier the baton was, the better. Boy oh boy, I was wrong. Different discussions have been brought up about what people carry. Mr. Janich mentioned his 21" airweight. Since this discussion, Mr. Janich sent one to me. I love it. It is half the weight of the 16" with a longer reach. As far as the weight is concerned, I must qualify this, holding them at the same time, it seems that the 16" if twice the weight of the airweight 21". I don't want to give the impression that I actually measured them. Some other piece of information for you, yesterday I ran a 5000k with this thing on my hip. It was great. I forgot it was there. This is at least my favorable experience with the 21". Typically, when I jog at night, I keep a C-2 Surefire in my left hand and the 21" in my right. I always keep a few folders in my hem line. If my dog gives me any indication that she smells something weird, she barks. This gives me plenty of time to deploy my tools. I try to be aware of my environment as much as possible, but, my pup's ears and nose, seem to be superior to mine!!!
"Travis!! Quit rambling!!!"
TQ
Edited by - travis quaas on 9/15/2003 7:49:00 AM
I was under the same situation as you. Years ago I purchased a 16" steel ASP. Mind you, I didn't have any training at the time on how to use it. For that matter, I am only beginning to learn the basic of basic stick work as taught by Mr. Janich.
When I purchased the 16", I was trying to get a compact tool to defend myself. The darn thing was heavy. But, I have to tell you...I didn't know enough at the time to make the right choice. I thought the heavier the baton was, the better. Boy oh boy, I was wrong. Different discussions have been brought up about what people carry. Mr. Janich mentioned his 21" airweight. Since this discussion, Mr. Janich sent one to me. I love it. It is half the weight of the 16" with a longer reach. As far as the weight is concerned, I must qualify this, holding them at the same time, it seems that the 16" if twice the weight of the airweight 21". I don't want to give the impression that I actually measured them. Some other piece of information for you, yesterday I ran a 5000k with this thing on my hip. It was great. I forgot it was there. This is at least my favorable experience with the 21". Typically, when I jog at night, I keep a C-2 Surefire in my left hand and the 21" in my right. I always keep a few folders in my hem line. If my dog gives me any indication that she smells something weird, she barks. This gives me plenty of time to deploy my tools. I try to be aware of my environment as much as possible, but, my pup's ears and nose, seem to be superior to mine!!!
"Travis!! Quit rambling!!!"
TQ
Edited by - travis quaas on 9/15/2003 7:49:00 AM
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vampyrewolf
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if I had a more agressive dog(or if she was in shape) I'd take her for the jog. I've got a fairly passive border collie, 6yrs I think. I fight with her all the time, so I don't doubt what she'd do to protect us... I've got a few fang marks myself. She's just more apt to lay on her belly and urinate than bark when she sees a new person.
weight isn't a concern to me. I've jogged with my 2d on the belt and other than bouncing around wasn't a problem. I tend to carry it though. Can swing a 5lbs sledge for a few hours working, so endurance is there.
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weight isn't a concern to me. I've jogged with my 2d on the belt and other than bouncing around wasn't a problem. I tend to carry it though. Can swing a 5lbs sledge for a few hours working, so endurance is there.
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Be aware that in most jurisdictions the law enforcement officer will see this as a billy club, sap, or other prohibited offensive weapon even if in the statute it is not directly indicated as such, it is related enough with these implements to be seen as such by LEOS and the DA. Yes I am an attorney and I have consulted several LEOS on this point. You are better off with OC spray, Two Delicas, and a legally concealed firearm (if legal).
Just my opinion however.
Jason
Just my opinion however.
Jason
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vampyrewolf
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Jason> ASPs are FULLY legal in Canada. I've consulted both LEOs in the station, and the RCMP who buys them at my local for his dep't.
Firearms are not legal to carry in canada.
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Firearms are not legal to carry in canada.
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Many a time LEO's have the incorrect analysis of the law. However their opinion will tell you what the average LEO will do with the average citizen in any given area. I used to instruct LEO's on the law and let me tell you, sometimes they knew the law, sometimes they were very incorrect. In Canada every provincial law officer will have a different take on it, since Canada according to your statutes uses a similar wish washy phrase like "prohibited weapon" in http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-46/40584.html The statute uses the phrase prohibited weapon many times without definition that I can see. As a result I would be extremely hessitant to carry anything that could be regarded as such.
Based on that statute I would not say under any circumstances that a baton is or isnt prohibited, but it could be by local statute or even law enforcement's opinion on the matter. To that end I would not carry an object which has no other lawful use but to be used as a weapon, IE: a baton.
If you decide to use a baton it will not be the LEO's who gave you their opinion who will be on the chopping block, it will be you.
Based on that statute I would not say under any circumstances that a baton is or isnt prohibited, but it could be by local statute or even law enforcement's opinion on the matter. To that end I would not carry an object which has no other lawful use but to be used as a weapon, IE: a baton.
If you decide to use a baton it will not be the LEO's who gave you their opinion who will be on the chopping block, it will be you.
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travis quaas
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Jason,
Thank you for the information. I am aware that most juristictions don't allow for a baton. In general, I agree that having one might get me into trouble. The idea that I would be thrown into jail for using this to protect myself or my family sickens me. But, I go into it with the full understanding that a jury may not let me off too easily. At least I got to court right?
Thanks again for your valuable information.
TQ
Thank you for the information. I am aware that most juristictions don't allow for a baton. In general, I agree that having one might get me into trouble. The idea that I would be thrown into jail for using this to protect myself or my family sickens me. But, I go into it with the full understanding that a jury may not let me off too easily. At least I got to court right?
Thanks again for your valuable information.
TQ