Marc the Knife wrote:Okay, I can see your point. I apologize for being too loose with my rhetoric. I had meant to direct my sarcasm at the more-heat-than-light stuff generated here and on BladeForums. I do not mean to contribute to the heat: I'd rather get enlightening answers from knowledgeable folk. But I suppose that stepping on a few toes and earning myself some heat is the nature of this online beast--for which I blame myself as much as anybody.
Aehh, it happens. There is another possible beef with the polymer cage, especially with a knife like the P'Kal, which is that it's a little low on the traction spectrum, especially if hands are cold or wet.
Another semi-on topic observation. Though I remember a couple of posts where the cage has actually split, most of the posts I've read about problems with the cage were caused by improper reassembly and the more frequent failure was the spring positioning pin breaking. There have definitely been calls for a metal, especially a titanium, cage, but the cost would be high. :spyder:
The lock is MBC rated for strength (200lbs+/inch of blade). I've heard of very few failures and mine is rock solid.
As mentioned with knives like the P'Kal and the movement away from (seemingly) the un-caged lock I expect it to be an evolution that is serving Spyderco well.
If the cage fails, the bearing will be able to escape. That's a big if, and the cage will have to fail catastrophically. The only times I've heard of one failing are when people take them apart and subject the cages to forces they are not designed to handle. This is probably due to incorrect disassembly/assembly. I would think the cages should be on par with FRN for stability in different environments (temperature, solvent, etc).
If concerned about failure due to chemicals, solvents, abrasives, temperatures during EDC or hard use, consider the environment and how long you could stand it as well. If momentary contact, consider washing/cleaning/maintaining the knife properly as it is like any other tool and needs to be maintained as such.
Understandable but remember that nearly every cutting tool used for martial purposes around the world is very crude in design. Box knives, hammered-locked Douk Douk's, and peasant knives turned into shanks. The traditional bone and wood-handled knives of Indonesia have blades from vehicle leaf springs. So could a Manix2 be trusted in a defense or even "hard work" role? Absolutely. In fact, I would trust a Delica in that role which by nature has a more fragile lock and blade tip. Even if it has a 1/5000 failure rate, which would be quite high, I would take those odds ANY day.
I think the main thing to consider is that a lock that is "functioning properly" is quite tough. One that isn't (like filled with mud) becomes unsafe. As long as the lock actuates properly and the polymer cage remains in-tact the tolerances of the ball bearing should remain accurate for thousands of openings since it's a self-wearing design. If the lock mechanism becomes off-track or the cage splits or twists then I would send the tool in immediately for service and repair.
That's just being a good steward of one's tools. If you depend on them for your safety they have to be respected, serviced, and repaired religiously.
Good input, everyone. Thanks. And I couldn't agree more with you, Blerv.
Some gun users also complain about MIM parts because, apparently, MIM parts can suddenly break apart. Depending on the quality of Spyderco's polymer, I'm not sure MIM would be any better. It might be considerably worse, and we'd lose some of the desirable properties of a polymer, like self-lubrication and corrosion resistance. That said, if there is a better cage material, polymer or otherwise, you know people would buy it, whatever the price mark-up. We knife nuts are suckers that way.
I don't mean to do a 180 here, but after a mere handful of days thinking about this issue of lock dependability for "hard use/MBC" knives, I'm getting tired of it. I'm beginning to appreciate how some forum veterans must feel whenever a lock thread unravels. Not that lock dependability for "tactical" folders isn't crucial--clearly, it is. But ... well, look at how we treat our guns. After a while, we have parts replaced or we retire old pieces altogether. I see no reason to think of our folders, especially hard-use folders, any differently.
Which brings me back to "What can we expect from the CBBL polymer"? More info--and more transparency--would be good. If there is some kind of shelf-life for the polymer, or for the spring, or whatever, I don't mind sending a knife back to Spyderco every five, ten years for servicing. Maybe, because the technology is new and evolving, Spyderco doesn't know what to tell us (an Achilles heel of CQI maybe?).
Maybe things are simpler with, say, the venerable backlock or even the Axis locks. I can kind of feel when my Omega springs get too slack and need repair/replacement (though they're not stout enough to begin with: on that, I think most of us would agree), so I've sent well-used BMs to Oregon for replacement springs. That's fine. Again, I try to treat my folders as if they're guns: maintenance and repair is normal. But I do like having some idea when, and which, parts should be repaired or replaced.
:spyder: The path of least resistance makes both men and rivers crooked. ~ Anonymous :spyder:
Blerv wrote:Understandable but remember that nearly every cutting tool used for martial purposes around the world is very crude in design.
Interesting point, Blerv, especially since I own more leaf-spring Nepalese khukuris than any other single style of knife. I suppose we could debate (endlessly) the virtues of creating crude, stout weapons vs. sophisticated, higher-maintenance weapons: a "khukuri" folder vs. a "katana" folder, if you will.
But, God, is that ever a debate for another thread and another time. Maybe after I've recovered from *this* thread.
**Edit: Don't mean to disrespect the kamis. Maybe communist-era dadaos would be a better example of crudity than the khukuri; however, I don't think the communists' dadaos were ever considered "stout" and reliable.***
:spyder: The path of least resistance makes both men and rivers crooked. ~ Anonymous :spyder:
I doubt we would debate for long. A 7mm+ thick Khukuri is hardly a makeshift tool.
My only point is that people of many countries tend to pick/build a tool for a job, when it breaks they build a better/tougher one. In the first world countries often we tend to over-think, over-build, and over-speculate. I've read DOZENS of threads of people concerned that a Para2 would be suitable for personal defense or that a Gayle Bradley would be sufficient for hard use (ie whittling). :confused:
The chance of a quality tool that has been well taken care of failing under normal conditions is abysmally low. People fought entire wars with guns they packed full of blackpowder and used hot fuses or flints to fire.
Still, if given the extremely low chance of a failing tool in a narrow window of mortal danger the user always has another option: Plan B. If they don't have an alternate plan really the problem isn't in the statistics of the first one but the total absence of the second. :)
Anyways...the polymer cage? The ultimate test of it's durability would be the number that are repaired/replaced at Spyderco. If it was a shoddy design CQI would change it out for one that lasts (like a solid chunk of steel or titanium). I can't imagine a bunch of employees at $12+ per hour replacing locks is more ideal than a part that would cost them another couple dollars during the build.
Blerv wrote:My only point is that people of many countries tend to pick/build a tool for a job, when it breaks they build a better/tougher one. In the first world countries often we tend to over-think, over-build, and over-speculate.
Anyways...the polymer cage? The ultimate test of it's durability would be the number that are repaired/replaced at Spyderco. If it was a shoddy design CQI would change it out for one that lasts (like a solid chunk of steel or titanium). I can't imagine a bunch of employees at $12+ per hour replacing locks is more ideal than a part that would cost them another couple dollars during the build.
Right. Besides, a metal cage would create more friction with the ball, creating more wear, no? Though we've not (yet) received any hard data about the Spyderco polymer, I'm starting to think that, short of a better polymer or a mithril cage, we may indeed have the best thing going. And ... I haven't read Tolkien in a while, but I don't think Mithril self-lubricates.
:spyder: The path of least resistance makes both men and rivers crooked. ~ Anonymous :spyder:
Marc the Knife wrote:Good input, everyone. Thanks. And I couldn't agree more with you, Blerv.
Some gun users also complain about MIM parts because, apparently, MIM parts can suddenly break apart. Depending on the quality of Spyderco's polymer, I'm not sure MIM would be any better. It might be considerably worse, and we'd lose some of the desirable properties of a polymer, like self-lubrication and corrosion resistance. That said, if there is a better cage material, polymer or otherwise, you know people would buy it, whatever the price mark-up. We knife nuts are suckers that way.
I don't mean to do a 180 here, but after a mere handful of days thinking about this issue of lock dependability for "hard use/MBC" knives, I'm getting tired of it. I'm beginning to appreciate how some forum veterans must feel whenever a lock thread unravels. Not that lock dependability for "tactical" folders isn't crucial--clearly, it is. But ... well, look at how we treat our guns. After a while, we have parts replaced or we retire old pieces altogether. I see no reason to think of our folders, especially hard-use folders, any differently.
Which brings me back to "What can we expect from the CBBL polymer"? More info--and more transparency--would be good. If there is some kind of shelf-life for the polymer, or for the spring, or whatever, I don't mind sending a knife back to Spyderco every five, ten years for servicing. Maybe, because the technology is new and evolving, Spyderco doesn't know what to tell us (an Achilles heel of CQI maybe?).
Maybe things are simpler with, say, the venerable backlock or even the Axis locks. I can kind of feel when my Omega springs get too slack and need repair/replacement (though they're not stout enough to begin with: on that, I think most of us would agree), so I've sent well-used BMs to Oregon for replacement springs. That's fine. Again, I try to treat my folders as if they're guns: maintenance and repair is normal. But I do like having some idea when, and which, parts should be repaired or replaced.
MIM parts in firearms is a discussion, no, an argument, for a different time and place. If you look at the failures, which are remarkably few in number, you would probably conclude that they are for the most part attributable to (1) placement early on the learning curve and/or (2) frankly inappropriate use of the technology. For the most part, MIM parts are better, cheaper, faster than parts milled from stock.
To attempt to veer back on topic, the cage probably would be a great use for MIM - but why? Would it benefit the user, or just increase coolness :cool: or costs :eek: ?
Just to put my experience in:
A few weeks back I busted the tang(?) of the cage on my 154CM BBL cage. THIS is due only to a rather mindless slip of hand while reassembling. I was ****ed at first. Was going to junk the knife. HOWEVER, I put it back together. For the first 25 or so uses, it was rather sticky BUT WORKED PERFECTLY.
So...your take away. Even when the polymer cage can be pointed to and labeled "broken"...it'll still work pretty fantastically.
I find it odd that the cage gets heat, and I have seen that heat on other forums and IG, when, in reality, the spring tension and integrity of the BB are really the only equipment items that could cause a lock failure. If you've taken the Manix2 apart then you know that those two equipment items aren't going to fail anytime soon.
First, I'm not sure what you mean by "tang." You mean one end of the polymer cage broke? Caved in maybe? But did the cage bust apart completely? I'm assuming it didn't; I can't imagine the CBBL working *at all* without the cage being at least somewhat intact. Can you clarify what condition the cage is in?
Second, what caused the cage to break during reassembly (assuming it didn't happen too quickly to discern)? Spring/pin pressure on the wrong part of the cage?
In any case, your story doesn't damage my opinion of the CBBL (necessarily); it just makes me wonder what's going wrong during these DIY reassemblies. Also ... I do hope you're planning to send the knife back, even if the warranty is compromised. My first concern is, of course, your safety. Second, I assume Spyderco wants to figure out what's going on, if they haven't already. Maybe they can change the cage so that DIYs don't ruin it. Or maybe they'll issue "Disassembly Will Compromise Your Knife" warnings, lol.
Please be safe.
:spyder: The path of least resistance makes both men and rivers crooked. ~ Anonymous :spyder:
The piece that is inside the spring. I will not be sending it back. The knife is not ruined. The spring still acts exactly as designed on the cage. ****, I'd jam a toothpick in there and it would function the same.
I broke the tang because I was being too hasty. When reassembling the Manix2, you need to pull the cage down against the spring to be able to get the BBL into the tang of the knife while only one liner/scale is installed. I had been working too quickly and at an odd angle. My forefinger slipped and my thumb pushed against the cage, chocking it at an angle against the tang of the cage, thus bending the tang at the connection point and snapping it.
I would not consider this a design flaw in anyway, the cage holds the BB perfectly but the tang on the cage isn't designed to be loaded but only to be a guide for the spring so it stays centered. I loaded the tang with quick and fast weight, it snapped. Oh well. Works just fine for me.
-GT
Thank you for that good description and pic, GT. I think I understand about as well as I can, without taking apart the CBBL myself or having you show me in person.
:spyder: The path of least resistance makes both men and rivers crooked. ~ Anonymous :spyder:
Marc the Knife wrote:Thank you for that good description and pic, GT. I think I understand about as well as I can, without taking apart the CBBL myself or having you show me in person.
So which one are you going to pick up? Manix or PKal?
This whole caged ball got rolling because of the Manix2XL: for me, it's pretty much the perfect production knife. I'd have to handle the P'kal before I could make a decision about it. If it's strictly a dedicated fighting knife, I'll probably pass. But in either case, I'm new to the CBBL, so here I am, attempting to do my homework.
Assuming equal toughness and reliability, I prefer the CBBL to the Axis and Arc lock. I especially like Spyderco's strong detent: it's one less thing to worry about if a cop questions my knife's legality, and I like the strong detent's extra measure of safety. I don't mind using two fingers to unlock the CBB. If the knife is harder to unlock, then, to me, that means it's less likely the knife will unlock when I don't want it to. I'd actually prefer that the CBB travel farther into the tang, requiring a longer pull to unlock, even if that means less convenience and less flick-ability.
But I digress ...
:spyder: The path of least resistance makes both men and rivers crooked. ~ Anonymous :spyder:
There is another possible beef with the polymer cage, especially with a knife like the P'Kal, which is that it's a little low on the traction spectrum, especially if hands are cold or wet. 
