cts-xhp chipping easily and dulling fast

[Cliff Stamp]

So I just got some new Shapton glass stones in the mail today for my Edge Pro...

I would be very curious as to how they behave compared to the Spyderco fine/uf ceramics.

[Evil D]

I'm sure I would like some Shapton Glass Stones but strops are less pricey. :)

But yeh, these days, I don't usually go past the spyderco medium when touching up. I just use the strops to polish the bevel(I like polished bevels) and put on a medium micro on it. I did have some difficulty making controlled cuts when I tried to shape a branch with green wood with my Bradley with the coarse edge.

I've thought about using strops for the sole purpose of polishing the bevels...which I may still do since i have a bunch of diamond paste left over and plenty of leather. I can always go back and micro bevel it.

[chuck_roxas45]

I've thought about using strops for the sole purpose of polishing the bevels...which I may still do since i have a bunch of diamond paste left over and plenty of leather. I can always go back and micro bevel it.

I do kinda like that the 14u paste loaded strop doesn't mar the polished bevel too much while still giving some bite to the edge. Takes a longer time to restore the edge with it than with a ceramic though. The 28u strop does make the bevel to hazy to be called polished.

[nozh2002]

Not sure how this turned into a strop thread.
Anyway, examining the chips futher with 20x loupe they look as though the steel carbides broke off as they didn't look like normal U shaped chips. Not sure if that's the correct terminology or not, but that's the best way I can describe them.

CTS XHP is micromelt version of 440XH (P means powder or particle I guess). They to my understanding less then 2 microns.

So this means there is no big carbides as in good old D2 - everything should be less or equal to particle size, this is why PM is in use and why it make many steels better performs.
Unless something went wrong with PM process.

My guess is that is is HT problem or may be likely problem with steel itself with PM even before it goes into HT. This is not usual for CTS XHP and I never experienced it with CTS-XHP knives I have.

But before this conclusion can be made you need to reproduce this problem clearly, to be sure that this is in deed edge get chips.

Can you whittle single hair? - This will indicate that nothing wrong with your edge.

[Slash]

Updated and edited op.

[jackknifeh]

Updated and edited op.

First: I like the way you put your updated the original past then put the notice here. Made it much easier to understand since this was my first time reading this thread. Inspirational. Bet you got through the 6th grade in 6 years. :) Took me a couple more. :D

I have notice the edge retention of the same blade changing between the time I opened the box and at sometime in the future. I (for now) am attributing the improvment to either getting rid of damaged HT at the edge (maybe), or my sharpening technique getting better. I know for a fact my skill has improved 100% in the past 5 years largely based on knowledge from the people on this forum. Now I'm even on the fence about strops where a year ago I loved them. Now I think they have their place but it's not 100% of the time. I also know I've spent a lot more money than necessary to achieve a great edge. However, the knowledge I have gained is priceless. :D Anyway, glad to hear your situation has improved especially since I have my first XHP blade in my ti Chaparral.

[Sierra_dave]

I have used my CTS-XHP mule for 3 months at 30 inclusive on yard work. The cutting of a lot of vines, twine, some cardboard. I had no rolls, chips and it really didn't need much sharpening, just touch-up. So I went to 25 inclusive and same results. I sharpen with diamond stones and finish it with hard Arkansas. No micro-chips, it stays sharp much better than s30v or D2. I have not whittled wood or cut wire. That's just my experience with using the knife. YMMV
SD

[Raymond3]

Could a few swipes on a high grit stone do better?


I'm far from a pro when it comes to sharpening. There are quite a few guys on here who have way more skill than me, but I couldn't attain this level of sharpness from stropping. This knife just came off my Edge Pro with a 600 grit micro bevel at 36 degrees on a 28 degrees inclusive back bevel.




That's proof enough that you don't NEED a strop to get a high level of sharpness, and as an added bonus I have a very stable edge that will last longer than a stropped edge.

Thank you for this picture. This is excellent with 600 grit. Could you recommend a place that I can go to learn how to sharpen like this? Maybe a video or other instructional article.

Thank you.

[jackknifeh]

Thank you for this picture. This is excellent with 600 grit. Could you recommend a place that I can go to learn how to sharpen like this? Maybe a video or other instructional article.

Thank you.

I'm not Evil of course but to get this level IMO will come if you take in all the info you can from any PROVEN source. Evil's pictures prove proficiency. This applies to about any skill I guess but if I were you, I'd take Evil's advice above others. Not that they are wrong but you may spend more time obtaining the skill you desire by trying to follow different variations of technique. Numerous techniques may be just as good as the other but I believe trying to follow different teachings only confound. Have you ever heard of a football team with several head coaches? You may have different coaches for different aspects (offense, defense, etc.) but there is one HEAD coach. I'm not saying don't listen to other's. Just focus on one opinion or technique to start with, then expand based on other information and you will develope your own system based on what you like. Your likes may be based on free hand or a system that controls the angle for you. Type of stones (diamond, water, ceramic, etc.) Of course I'm asking you to take my advice by taking Evil's advice so if you do that you have already taken someone else's advice. :D In the end though, your imrovement will mostly depend on your application of good information. Practice makes perfect but it takes perfect practice. Don't fart around stroking an edge on a stone and expect to improve. Take your time, go slow, develope GOOD technique and habits and the speed will develope on it's own. Good luck.

Oh, if you are wondering how long it takes to be really good? Ask Evil how long he has been trying to be really good. Then you may have some idea. You never know, you may be a sharpening natural.

Jack

[zinczinc]

My Techno has held up to box cutting and kitchen use really well. Although it's more than twice as thick, I lowered the edge angle to about 25 inclusive or so, but no chipping on my end. I'd guess either you left a burr, or there is a heat treat problem with your Chap. GL fixing it

Hey bro,

I got some trouble of using SM to sharpen my techno.

I don't have any ultra fine stone.

But the blade that really close to the handle is kinda uneven. I don't know what I should do=[

[Raymond3]

Hi Jack, True words. And I appreciate them a lot.

I am still looking for suggestions. My last attempt last night was on a M4 Spydie Manix 2 using an Edge Pro. Using the 600 grit last left a very sharp blade. One that push cuts phone book paper, and is a great slicer due to a very high toothiness (for me, since I am used to far higher grit sharpening). But, it pulls when cutting hairs, and does not split them. I re-proflled the edge to 25degrees inclusive, and then did a very gentle 30 degree micro-bevel. Very light strokes on the micro-bevel, and super light on the last strokes with a 600 Chosera natural stone on the Edge Pro. The stone was moist and had a little clean slurry. Last stokes were with the edge, like stropping. Most folks would consider this edge magnificent, and it is, for slicing just about anything. But, it will not split hairs. Any suggestions on things that I might try for improvement would be appreciated.

Also, I have been working on my technique for about 56 years, and on the EP for about seven. Have gotten knives hair splitting sharp using several methods of sharpening, but never with a stone so gritty as 600. So, still trying to improve.

Thanks,

Ray

[jackknifeh]

Hi Jack, True words. And I appreciate them a lot.

I am still looking for suggestions. My last attempt last night was on a M4 Spydie Manix 2 using an Edge Pro. Using the 600 grit last left a very sharp blade. One that push cuts phone book paper, and is a great slicer due to a very high toothiness (for me, since I am used to far higher grit sharpening). But, it pulls when cutting hairs, and does not split them. I re-proflled the edge to 25degrees inclusive, and then did a very gentle 30 degree micro-bevel. Very light strokes on the micro-bevel, and super light on the last strokes with a 600 Chosera natural stone on the Edge Pro. The stone was moist and had a little clean slurry. Last stokes were with the edge, like stropping. Most folks would consider this edge magnificent, and it is, for slicing just about anything. But, it will not split hairs. Any suggestions on things that I might try for improvement would be appreciated.

Also, I have been working on my technique for about 56 years, and on the EP for about seven. Have gotten knives hair splitting sharp using several methods of sharpening, but never with a stone so gritty as 600. So, still trying to improve.

Thanks,

Ray

You have a lot more experience than I was thinking when I wrote the last post. You may be doing the same as me. I'm 56 now (I think :) ) and have sharpened my knives since I was about 10. I could always get the edge to shave my arm and I was happy and actually thought I was a very good sharpener. That was until I started getting better knives with better and harder steels and needing better, faster cutting stones. Not to mention seeing pictures of whittled hairs in places like this forum. So about 5 years ago I started trying to be able to do that and shaving a forearm was like a minimum standard for sharpness. Anyway, from what I've learned so far and I'm still learning, it's the final strokes that are key. Being able to maintain a consistant angle of course and very light pressure. You know that though based on what you said in your post. I've had an Edge Pro for about 3 years and love it. Recently though I've really been trying to improve my free hand skill. Now I prefer to finish an edge on bench stones. I've had Shapton glass stones and they are truely wonderful IMO. I want an 8k 8" stone. But I can get really great (IMO) results with an extra fine DMT stone or fine grit Spyderco stone. It seems to me each grit is really two grits (kind of). You can get one result using more pressure and a much more refined edge using very light strokes. It seems to my at the moment the results are almost like using two different grit stones. This is easier to understand for me by picturing diamond stones. The diamond particles are sitting on the surface. Depending on their size (grit) they can cut at a certain depth using more pressure. However, using a very light stroke the particles won't cut as deep, leaving the result of a finer grit. I'm not 100% convinced about this but it's something I've considered and it makes sense to me. I have the Shapton glass stones up to the 8k for the EP but I think I want the 8k bench stone even though I don't NEED it. I got the 6k bench stone because the 8k was out of stock. Now I wish I had been more patient and not gotten the 6k and waited for the 8k to be available. But with an EP or free hand I think the key for the really stupid sharp edge is light strokes. Finishing sometimes using only the weight of the blade to perform the final few strokes, especially if I am trying to ensure there isn't a microscopic burr that I can't feel with my fingers. Someone here mentioned the other day he uses cotton balls to check for the really small burrs. I'm going to try that. On a chefs knife which has a heavier blade I may even try to lessen the pressure to less than it's weight. I'm not really good at free hand, just trying to improve for the heck of it and I always have respected the skill. For most of my life I really didnt know a pocket knife would ever have the edge to whittle hair. One thing that is helping me now is I can "see" in my mind what is happening to the edge when I stroke a stone. I imagine the edge at a level that is not visible to the naked eye. At least not MY naked eye. :) Hope that makes sense. Most of this kind of stuff has come to me through reading forums like this one, mainly this one and seeing magnified pictures of edges. I found out even my beautiful wide (low angle) mirror bevel than I can see my ugly mug in looks HORRIBLE at high magnification. :)

I am really liking getting my skill refined. I can now say I can get all my knives (pocket, kitchen, etc.) sharper than they really NEED to be. I can't imagine a pocket knife on the planet that is asked to perform tasks that would require an edge that is sharp enough to whittle a hair. I think that level of sharpness would be valued by sergeons (and the patient). A cut with a smooth, razor sharp edge will heal faster than a cut by a jagged dull edge. Still I like being able to get the edge that sharp. My problem is being able to hold my hands steady enough to whittle without cutting all the way through the hair.

I think I've babbled enough. I tend to ramble. Sorry.

Jack

[Raymond3]

I am really liking getting my skill refined. I can now say I can get all my knives (pocket, kitchen, etc.) sharper than they really NEED to be. I can't imagine a pocket knife on the planet that is asked to perform tasks that would require an edge that is sharp enough to whittle a hair. I think that level of sharpness would be valued by sergeons (and the patient). A cut with a smooth, razor sharp edge will heal faster than a cut by a jagged dull edge. Still I like being able to get the edge that sharp. My problem is being able to hold my hands steady enough to whittle without cutting all the way through the hair.

I think I've babbled enough. I tend to ramble. Sorry.

Jack

Hi Jack, love other sharpeners babbling. learned lots from those kinds of conversations over the years. As far as the glass stones, never tried them. decided originally to go with the original EP, then the upgraded EP stones when they came out, then went with the Chosera, all the way up to 10k grit and love them. If I had it to do over, would pick them from the start. Then, I added a Ozuku Asagi EP very hard polishing stone (awasedo). I have seen estimates that it is from 15 to 30k, hard to tell, but way smaller grit than the 10k. Leaves a very nice edge indeed. Requires a lot of patience, and soft touch, almost like being a surgeon with the stone. So, I am not sure if I also want more duplicates with the Shaptons.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Ray
been sharpening for others since I was seven, am 62 now.

[Evil D]

This is perhaps the most important post concerning the stropping debate.

-strops are usually on material which compresses, this loads the edge because of the pressure gradient

To understand this, take a large wedge and press it against a hard surface, what happens - nothing. Now take the same wedge and press it against a surface which can compress and you can easily break off the top (apex) of the wedge, why? Because if the surface compresses you can easily put pressure on the apex as it is no longer supported by the material behind it.