Sharpening so much over time that it's too much?

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
User avatar
peacefuljeffrey
Member
Posts: 1192
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:42 am

Postby peacefuljeffrey » Wed May 29, 2013 11:06 am

Yes, as I suspected, when I examined my Manix 2 I can see that it looks like if the edge were ever ground too high for the handle, grinding the tip down via the spine, the tip would still rise up to be exposed away from the handle scales, which are carved out deep there in the area where your pinkie finger would rest.
"Within this frame an ocean swells -- behind the smile -- I know it well..."

GoodEyeSniper
Member
Posts: 400
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:32 am

Postby GoodEyeSniper » Wed May 29, 2013 12:06 pm

Good reason to have a handle like the Police or Dragonfly, where a portion of the butt follows the spine perfectly. Not only is it aesthetically pleasing, but it means you could snap off or sharpen a huge portion of the blade, and it would still be tucked into the handle.

Image

On the dragonfly you'd have to sharpen about halfway up the grind... that's a ton of sharpening.

Looking at my Military and it's generous Oakland booty, I could lose almost an inch of tip before it poking out of its pants.

User avatar
peacefuljeffrey
Member
Posts: 1192
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:42 am

Postby peacefuljeffrey » Wed May 29, 2013 1:01 pm

Exactly, and that's why I'm imploring that Spyderco consider a revision to the profile of the blade of the Manix 2.
"Within this frame an ocean swells -- behind the smile -- I know it well..."

Don W
Member
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:22 am

Postby Don W » Wed May 29, 2013 1:46 pm

I have worn a few knives out. They were work knives. I retired them ( thrown in a shoe box in my closet). As far as sharpening one too much on a Manix2, I wouldnt worry about it unless you are sharpening it with power tools. If you have used the knife enough to sharpen it that much you deserve to buy another.
I dont know maybe I am the only one who likes to buy knives.
The Manix2 I bought in January cost less than 1 tank of gasoline in my truck. That gasoline took me about 350 miles or maybe 1 week.

GoodEyeSniper
Member
Posts: 400
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:32 am

Postby GoodEyeSniper » Wed May 29, 2013 2:29 pm

Don W wrote:I have worn a few knives out. They were work knives. I retired them ( thrown in a shoe box in my closet). As far as sharpening one too much on a Manix2, I wouldnt worry about it unless you are sharpening it with power tools. If you have used the knife enough to sharpen it that much you deserve to buy another.
I dont know maybe I am the only one who likes to buy knives.
The Manix2 I bought in January cost less than 1 tank of gasoline in my truck. That gasoline took me about 350 miles or maybe 1 week.
TBH I like the idea of having your ONE knife, one that your significant other will recognize as well as she recognizes your lucky T shirt, one that your child has watched for years and it's as much a part of you as the mole on your cheek is. One that has a different blade because of being sharpened so much, different handles from seeing so much action. It's sort of a romantic ideal, one we grew up with having thrifty grandpas or dads who wouldn't have a drawer full of pocket knives. They would have ONE until it was used up, lost, or broken.

I mean, I'm way past that point. I have way too many knives already and I am incapable of selling even the ones I never use. But it's a nice thought to me. My sprint run Military has almost become that knife in the past two years, but I think with my life changing directions I might be able to put a Delica or Dragonfly into that role more comfortably. I just need to get one first :p

User avatar
Evil D
Member
Posts: 22194
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:48 pm
Location: Northern KY

Postby Evil D » Wed May 29, 2013 3:33 pm

peacefuljeffrey wrote:Exactly, and that's why I'm imploring that Spyderco consider a revision to the profile of the blade of the Manix 2.
Huh...I didn't really think about it but I happen to have my Manix 2 sitting in front of me, and I can actually see the bevel peaking out from the handle. I literally have about 1/16 before my tip is exposed, and then what? This is kind of a downer...I like the idea that I could use a knife down to a nub, but I'm betting there are a lot of knives in the lineup like this where you might have 1/4 inch into the blade before the tip is exposed and there may not be anything you can do to fix it.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
~David

GoodEyeSniper
Member
Posts: 400
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:32 am

Postby GoodEyeSniper » Wed May 29, 2013 3:40 pm

with the manix handle I don't think the tip coming out a bit is a *complete* deal breaker. You still have that rear swell on the butt of the handle, meaning it would be really hard to get your skin or anything caught on it. It's really less than ideal, though. Just compared to some other knife handles it wouldn't cause a huge issue.

User avatar
peacefuljeffrey
Member
Posts: 1192
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:42 am

Postby peacefuljeffrey » Wed May 29, 2013 8:29 pm

Evil D wrote:Huh...I didn't really think about it but I happen to have my Manix 2 sitting in front of me, and I can actually see the bevel peaking out from the handle. I literally have about 1/16 before my tip is exposed, and then what? This is kind of a downer...I like the idea that I could use a knife down to a nub, but I'm betting there are a lot of knives in the lineup like this where you might have 1/4 inch into the blade before the tip is exposed and there may not be anything you can do to fix it.
The way I see it is that there really isn't ANY good reason why the blade shouldn't be shaped in such a way that the tip would be far into that swell of the heel of the handle, so that even voracious sharpening over time would not grind the tip down to where it leaves the safety of the handle. I cited the Dragonfly and more importantly the Manix 2 XL, the tip of which is WAY far into the swell of the handle and looks like it could be sharpened for a hundred years before this became an issue. I mentioned that all that is needed is a minor revision to the shape of the blade, adding a very small amount of length and only moderately decreasing the arc of the blade's belly. The possibility of this admittedly long-term problem ever occurring would be practically eliminated.
"Within this frame an ocean swells -- behind the smile -- I know it well..."

User avatar
jackknifeh
Member
Posts: 8412
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:01 am
Location: Florida panhandle

Postby jackknifeh » Wed May 29, 2013 8:50 pm

I don't have a Manix2 to look at right now. I have had them taken apart but can't remember what the parts look like that stop the blade when it closes. I think it's encorperated in the tang and bearing. Does anyone else that has had them apart remember? For the knives that have been made the best way to alter the location of the clip when closed (how far down) would be to modify the stop method I think. I've done that on other knives but never needed to deal with it on a Manix. I don't think that is. I do remember doing something to my knife in that area but I don't know what. Honestly, I can't think of anything other than changing the tip's location when closed that I would do to that part of the knife. The suggestions so far would work I guess but if Spyderco changes anything on this issue there's no telling how they would decide to do it. Does anyone have a brand new one to look at or maybe provide a picture? Pictures of the bad ones also would be interesting.

Don W
Member
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:22 am

Postby Don W » Thu May 30, 2013 5:21 am

Maybe the blade on my knife drops deeper into the handle. If I sharpened my knife until the point was sticking out to catch on things it would be very thick behind the edge.
I tried to get a picture that shows.
How does it compare to your knife?
ImageImage

User avatar
jackknifeh
Member
Posts: 8412
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:01 am
Location: Florida panhandle

Postby jackknifeh » Thu May 30, 2013 5:56 am

Don W wrote:Maybe the blade on my knife drops deeper into the handle. If I sharpened my knife until the point was sticking out to catch on things it would be very thick behind the edge.
I tried to get a picture that shows.
How does it compare to your knife?
ImageImage

Good pictures. Especially the first one. I had two Manix2s and don't remember this being an issue or worrying about it in the future on them. Maybe some of the sharpeners at Spyderco got a little excited and removed more steel on some blades than others. As you said though for that to have happened to your knife WAY too much of the blade would have been gone leaving the edge really thick. It'll be interesting to see pictures of the problem knives people have.

User avatar
defenestrate
Member
Posts: 2403
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: RTP NC area
Contact:

Postby defenestrate » Thu May 30, 2013 8:19 am

You bring up an interesting point, peacefuljeffrey. I would guess that while designing the handle, Eric weighed how much blade he could tuck into that shape of handle while still having a reasonable life of use and sharpening, but QC variances and the amount of use/sharpening a blade sees are variables that are not 100% predictable. Thanks for bring this up - I know a couple of my hawkbills (thinking Spyderhawk and Matriarch here offhand, but maybe the Meadowlark Hawkbill as well) get right by the handle edge within their edge curve, but as they are serrated that edge will take a long time to wear down without abusing it.
I drink, and I cut things.
-er, me, by way of Tyrion Lannister

Fancier
Member
Posts: 281
Joined: Mon May 21, 2012 11:34 pm

Postby Fancier » Thu May 30, 2013 12:00 pm

Jack, I pulled mine apart yesterday to verify the lock stop before I made my last comment. One of the advantages of the clear plastic lock release on the older Manix 2 is that you can see what is happening without taking the knife apart. The tang sandwiches the lock release against the back spacer when the blade is closed. If you slide the lock release while the blade is close you can make the blade drop down further into the handle.

User avatar
jackknifeh
Member
Posts: 8412
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:01 am
Location: Florida panhandle

Postby jackknifeh » Thu May 30, 2013 12:36 pm

Fancier wrote:Jack, I pulled mine apart yesterday to verify the lock stop before I made my last comment. One of the advantages of the clear plastic lock release on the older Manix 2 is that you can see what is happening without taking the knife apart. The tang sandwiches the lock release against the back spacer when the blade is closed. If you slide the lock release while the blade is close you can make the blade drop down further into the handle.
Can you file inside the spot on the tang so the blade will close farther into the handle? This is sounding familiar. Sometimes filing for one objectife can cause other problems so you Dremel guys, THINK BEFORE DREMELLING. :D

Fancier
Member
Posts: 281
Joined: Mon May 21, 2012 11:34 pm

Postby Fancier » Thu May 30, 2013 2:09 pm

I consider those type of modifications to be under the heading of "I might as well try, since I can't make things worse and I might make things better." In other words I personally wouldn't pull the knife apart in order to get to the portion of the tang in question and then start grinding on it unless the alternative was to stop using the knife.
Of course, some folks have a much worse case of knife OCD than I do.

armstrong1720
Member
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 7:33 pm
Location: Stephenville, TEXAS

Postby armstrong1720 » Thu May 30, 2013 2:20 pm

I have seen my dad sharpen down schrades , cases , pumas down to where they stab you when you reach deep in your pocket. We dairied and he was always cutting twine off the hay. Twine with dirt will dull a knife in a heart beat and shorten the life of a knife greatly

User avatar
jackknifeh
Member
Posts: 8412
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:01 am
Location: Florida panhandle

Postby jackknifeh » Thu May 30, 2013 2:52 pm

Fancier wrote:I consider those type of modifications to be under the heading of "I might as well try, since I can't make things worse and I might make things better." In other words I personally wouldn't pull the knife apart in order to get to the portion of the tang in question and then start grinding on it unless the alternative was to stop using the knife.
Of course, some folks have a much worse case of knife OCD than I do.
Now that I TRY to remember I think I may have done just that on mine. I truely can't remember 100%. If it was my M4 Manix2 my son has it now. I'm really curious now but I don't think I want to disassemble it just to see. The Manix2 is not a hard re-assembly as some things go but it's one of the more difficult lock types to assemble in my experience. The easiest way is to put the blade in first or the spring, bearing, buttons in first. I have it written down. One way is really hard for me and the other way is easy but not as easy as a back lock or liner lock. Actually, the way I call hard I never did get to work. I learned how by watching a video and the first time I had to refer back to it.

Knowing this situation can happen should encourage us (me) to sharpen properly so as to not remove any more steel than necessary and try to limit our number of reprofiles per knife. Playing with edge angles and stuff like that has used up a lot more steel on my knives than just keeping one sharp will ever do. :( I can say that playing with different edges and/or angles has taught me more so now I can have a better idea of how I want an edge on a given knife and get it profiled once and be done with it (usually :) ).

User avatar
peacefuljeffrey
Member
Posts: 1192
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:42 am

Postby peacefuljeffrey » Thu May 30, 2013 6:06 pm

"Knife OCD"! LOL! :laugh: That's pretty much a good descriptor for how I feel about this. I know it's not an issue now for my Manix 2, but it bothers me like a pebble in my shoe that it could come to be, and a lot sooner than the brother-knife, the Manix 2 XL. Especially important to me (and I apologize if it seems that I'm beating a dead horse) is the fact that it really seems that a tiny difference in the design of the blade could potentially add scores or hundreds of sharpenings to the life of the Manix 2. Just lengthen the tip. All that would really change would be a barely perceptible straightening of the curve of the blade.

My thanks to Don W for taking the time to post his pics. Don, I'll try to take similar pics of my knife later on, but it might be a few days before I'll be able to upload them and share them.
"Within this frame an ocean swells -- behind the smile -- I know it well..."

User avatar
Uke
Member
Posts: 169
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:02 am
Location: California, USA

Postby Uke » Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:33 pm

After reading this thread I took a look at my Manix 2s and noticed that my M4 Sprint has this same problem :( I'm pretty OCD and just couldn't leave it alone, so I decided to go down this route...
Fancier wrote:Jack, I pulled mine apart yesterday to verify the lock stop before I made my last comment. One of the advantages of the clear plastic lock release on the older Manix 2 is that you can see what is happening without taking the knife apart. The tang sandwiches the lock release against the back spacer when the blade is closed. If you slide the lock release while the blade is close you can make the blade drop down further into the handle.
jackknifeh wrote:Can you file inside the spot on the tang so the blade will close farther into the handle? This is sounding familiar. Sometimes filing for one objectife can cause other problems so you Dremel guys, THINK BEFORE DREMELLING. :D
...well cheers guys, it works! :D

Before:
Image

After:
Image

Before:
Image

After:
Image

I couldn't be happier with the results. My OCD worrying has been banished! I had been concerned that this might affect the strength of blade retention, but it hasn't at all.

I simply popped the blade into a vice and used a small diamond file to smooth out the little 'step' that causes the 'blade-drop' movement that Fancier describes above.

Blade in the vice...notice the little step on the tang?
Image

Here it is, highlighted in red...
Image

Now I really took my time doing this so as not to remove more of the tang than was needed. Part assembling the knife in between removing metal helped to see exactly how much further I needed to take it. I made sure that no matter where I slide the lock cage the blade never raises when closed, paying attention to where the finger guard meets the backspacer/lock mechanism (circled in red). I filed away until these areas lightly touched, so that the tip rides as low as possible:Image

The problem seems to have been that the blade has been over-ground at the tip, shortening the blade and actually raising the tip to quite a noticeable degree. I may even grind down the spine to centre the tip and have it ride even lower in the handles...not sure yet as I hate losing any CPM-M4! I'm not sure if the little step on the tang is a flaw or not (it isn't present on my Manix 2 Lightweight) but the tip certainly rides lower now its gone!

I hope that's of some use fellas, and thanks again to Fancier and jackknifeh for the idea!

Cheers for now,

Uke.

User avatar
jackknifeh
Member
Posts: 8412
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:01 am
Location: Florida panhandle

Postby jackknifeh » Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:10 pm

Uke wrote:After reading this thread I took a look at my Manix 2s and noticed that my M4 Sprint has this same problem :( I'm pretty OCD and just couldn't leave it alone, so I decided to go down this route...





...well cheers guys, it works! :D

Before:
Image

After:
Image

Before:
Image

After:
Image

I couldn't be happier with the results. My OCD worrying has been banished! I had been concerned that this might affect the strength of blade retention, but it hasn't at all.

I simply popped the blade into a vice and used a small diamond file to smooth out the little 'step' that causes the 'blade-drop' movement that Fancier describes above.

Blade in the vice...notice the little step on the tang?
Image

Here it is, highlighted in red...
Image

Now I really took my time doing this so as not to remove more of the tang than was needed. Part assembling the knife in between removing metal helped to see exactly how much further I needed to take it. I made sure that no matter where I slide the lock cage the blade never raises when closed, paying attention to where the finger guard meets the backspacer/lock mechanism (circled in red). I filed away until these areas lightly touched, so that the tip rides as low as possible:Image

The problem seems to have been that the blade has been over-ground at the tip, shortening the blade and actually raising the tip to quite a noticeable degree. I may even grind down the spine to centre the tip and have it ride even lower in the handles...not sure yet as I hate losing any CPM-M4! I'm not sure if the little step on the tang is a flaw or not (it isn't present on my Manix 2 Lightweight) but the tip certainly rides lower now its gone!

I hope that's of some use fellas, and thanks again to Fancier and jackknifeh for the idea!

Cheers for now,

Uke.
Excellent job. I remember thanks to your pictures I did the same thing on my M4 Manix2. I also remember why mine needed this work. I had tried different angles on the edge and sharpened away the amount of steel that mormally would have taken approximately 4 years and 3 months to remove. :)

Jack


Return to “Spyderco General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: bbturbodad, Bing [Bot], JuPaul, keen1, nerdlock, RustyIron, Sumdumguy and 48 guests