CPM M4 best knife steel......yet???

[chuck_roxas45]

But which of my opinions was shot down? Are you confusing me with someone else?

I'm sure David wasn't speaking about you in particular. He was probably just talking in general where people express opinions and where some others try to present counter opinions. It's all good(well, except when it's not). We all love steels here. :D

[Greaser]

I'm not sure I understand what you want here. Is it fine for people to share opinions if they're completely wrong, and others are believing those opinions?

Lets have an example. If your opinion is "VG10 holds a working edge far longer than S90V". Fine, that's your opinion, but I can tell you that you may be the only person on Earth with that opinion. If a slew of new members comes in and reads that and believes it, and runs out buying up VG10 and spreading that opinion as fact, only to find out how completely wrong it is, is that ok?

Now, if your opinion is "G10 handles are better than carbon fiber handles" and someone comes in spouting off to you how much better carbon fiber is than G10, then yeah I can see where you have every right to your opinion on what is better, since that opinion is completely subjective and has no effect on the actual performance of either side of the debate.

The problem is when someones opinion voices a claim about something (whether intentional or not) that completely goes against what is actual fact about that something, then we have a problem.

Another way to put this is, a lot of what you see as "opinion" is not in fact opinion at all, it's misconception and ignorance. When those kinds of people are "policed" it isn't because someone is being a prick, they're just trying to help them along with the right information.

This entire thread is a prime example. "M4 is the best steel yet", is completely subjective and in no way could ever be factual. If I'm a newcomer and I see this thread, I could very easily believe that M4 is hands down better than any steel out there if nobody ever came in and debated that statement. What's best for one person isn't best for the next. It's a problem with wording. If the thread was "M4 is my favorite steel yet" then fine have your opinion, nothing wrong with that.

Did you read the post I was referring to? Maybe re-read it? It's #28 on page 2. I think you may have missed my point. I agree with you on the "setting the facts straight" part, it's just the method that bothered me.

[CarbonFiberNut]

I agree with you on the "setting the facts straight" part, it's just the method that bothered me.

Enforcer has been ruffling a lot of feathers with his attitude ever since he arrived here (just a bit before I made an account and started posting). It's not surprising that people are responding in kind.

[[ENFORCER]]

Enforcer has been ruffling a lot of feathers with his attitude ever since he arrived here. It's not surprising that people are responding in kind.

I'm a bi**h, always have been, but people whining about it doesn't help at all.
The CPM154CM mistake was an honest mistake yet some dude was rude about it.
No harm done.
Getting pissed at me isn't going to solve anyone's problems, and in most cases it makes them worse.

[kbuzbee]

Somehow, that makes me sad...)

Me too. Your memory is a terrible thing to loose... at least I think it is

Ken

(don't take this wrong, I enjoy lots of things, I'm just pulling your leg! )

[kbuzbee]

GB is always an option and there's that mini grip exclusive.

My mini grip is no where near my Bradley, performance wise. I think they ran the mini grips a few points softer and it makes quite a difference. In fact, my Bradley's are early ones and are a bit harder yet.

Just saying...

Ken

[Donut]

I'm a fan of Damascus made with CPF-154CM90XVNHP and S35CPM110V and an AUS-8adt core. :)

No really, M4 is pretty perfect, unless I am worried about rust. S35VN and XHP and M390 are awesome and better than what I need. BD1 and VG-10 is ideal for me and I admire ZDP-189.

[Jay_Ev]

If I'm a newcomer and I see this thread, I could very easily believe that M4 is hands down better than any steel out there if nobody ever came in and debated that statement. What's best for one person isn't best for the next. It's a problem with wording. If the thread was "M4 is my favorite steel yet" then fine have your opinion, nothing wrong with that.

If somebody does that, then that is their own fault. It is up to each individual to do his / her own homework and research and not accept the first thing they read online as gospel.

[jtoler_9]

]I'm a bi**h, always have been, but people whining about it doesn't help at all.
The CPM154CM mistake was an honest mistake yet some dude was rude about it.
No harm done.
Getting pissed at me isn't going to solve anyone's problems, and in most cases it makes them worse.

Some advice from a new friend of mine.

]
Just stop.

Back on topic. I enjoy M4, I do wonder how much of a difference the RC hardness comes into play. Can it make or brake the benefit of M4 with regards to edge holding?
I know the other guys not to recently bumped their M4 hardness up a bit after getting reports of it being too soft.

[Cliff Stamp]

... try to beat everyone down with facts and the science of metallurgy. Not very fun.

Use the ignore feature any time someone interjects a little objectivity, presto, right back to subjective opinions only.

[Evil D]

If somebody does that, then that is their own fault. It is up to each individual to do his / her own homework and research and not accept the first thing they read online as gospel.

That's true, but the rest of us are here to make that research easier

[chuck_roxas45]

Me too. Your memory is a terrible thing to loose... at least I think it is

Ken

(don't take this wrong, I enjoy lots of things, I'm just pulling your leg! )

Hehe I know, I enjoy having it pulled too. :) (TWSS)

[Blerv]

I agree, but in other threads we've discussed just preferring one because you do. You can try to qualify it and quantify it but, unless you're Jim etc it's just more likely you like what you like because you like it.

I have "observations" about various aspects of various steels and I can try to justify them, but at the end of the day it's pretty much all anecdotal.
Ken

I agree Ken. As you indicated bias are almost guaranteed play into decisions because we aren't sensitive enough to realize the nuances of these materials, not at least not to cutting-test results or lab equipment. For that reason it's like buying a Volvo because you "prefer safe cars". That isn't to say Volvo's are the safest or even will provide a safe experience, it's just that in generally they score pretty high up the chart and people can trust them without tracking crash test data.

M4 seems a great steel in my limited experience and takes an edge easily. I've yet to see it rust up even without forcing a patina. Between that and the placebo factor I'm quite happy with it. :D

[Greaser]

Use the ignore feature any time someone interjects a little objectivity, presto, right back to subjective opinions only.

Is it possible to bring objectivity to a discussion without interjecting an elitist attitude? I am all for objectivity, but how about objectivity with a smile? :)

My point was simple...when you're correcting another person's false statement you don't have to make them feel like a total idiot for not knowing or getting something wrong. It's possible to teach someone without making them feel inferior.

When my patients or students ask me a question, I don't bury them with facts and big words. I also don't go on about how what they had previously believed was wrong and that they are spewing misinformation and misleading others.

[CarbonFiberNut]

Greaser, as a fellow new guy, I think you are overreacting a bit - relax and enjoy the opportunity to learn from some very experienced guys.

[Rangodash]

As a new guy as well, could maybe someone leave a list of people that are experienced? It would help a lot, as I have no idea who everyone is. Just so us new guys will know the experienced people to look to.

[PMBohol]

I didn't think I would post here again but this thread prompts me to do so. This forum has both knife and steel experts as well as novices like myself. It is not limited to experts otherwise there would be an entrance exam before being accepted. As with any other forum there are many different personalities as well. Many experts here will provide us newbies with great answers and information and some will come back at you with a sarcastic or inflammatory post that keeps new posters away. Yes we could use the ignore function but that has downsides as well.

Everyone here was a probie at one point. If we post something that is incorrect, there are ways to correct the poster without demeaning them. Sal has the shiny footprints thread here. I actually read that thread first before anything else. It might behoove some to go back and refresh themselves.

As always, the info and expertise here is greatly appreciated.

[Blerv]

Is it possible to bring objectivity to a discussion without interjecting an elitist attitude? I am all for objectivity, but how about objectivity with a smile? :)

My point was simple...when you're correcting another person's false statement you don't have to make them feel like a total idiot for not knowing or getting something wrong. It's possible to teach someone without making them feel inferior.

When my patients or students ask me a question, I don't bury them with facts and big words. I also don't go on about how what they had previously believed was wrong and that they are spewing misinformation and misleading others.

It's also extremely possible the semantic squabble over "CPM-154CM" was rooted in something else. Perhaps one person has been annoyed with another, perhaps for a while, and this didn't simply generate out of thin air? Take that context out of the situation and Chuck looks like a random attacker. :)

Everyone has an opinion and has the freedom (within reason) to share it. The other side of that freedom is the recipient's right to counter or accept that stance. I've delivered intentionally kind but correcting information and it has still "offended" people (because people don't enjoy being wrong). The harder you try the less efficient communication becomes and the more patronizing the result.

I don't enjoy being picked on. I abhor being incorrect. Having an earnest desire to learn instead of posture tends to deflate arguments. It's difficult to stay angry at someone who thanks you for correcting them...

[chuck_roxas45]

I didn't think I would post here again but this thread prompts me to do so. This forum has both knife and steel experts as well as novices like myself. It is not limited to experts otherwise there would be an entrance exam before being accepted. As with any other forum there are many different personalities as well. Many experts here will provide us newbies with great answers and information and some will come back at you with a sarcastic or inflammatory post that keeps new posters away. Yes we could use the ignore function but that has downsides as well.

Everyone here was a probie at one point. If we post something that is incorrect, there are ways to correct the poster without demeaning them. Sal has the shiny footprints thread here. I actually read that thread first before anything else. It might behoove some to go back and refresh themselves.

As always, the info and expertise here is greatly appreciated.

I agree but there are also ways that a noobie can post what he may think is the right info without trying to project more knowledge and experience than what he actually has.

I agree that a little humility(from both noobs and old f***s) will go a long way.

[xceptnl]

As a new guy as well, could maybe someone leave a list of people that are experienced? It would help a lot, as I have no idea who everyone is. Just so us new guys will know the experienced people to look to.

As was pointed out by [ENFORCER] in one of his first posts on the forum; posts and threads here are captured in time. Use the history to make up your own mind about who you believe is experienced. That being said I will give my opinion of whom knows of what they speak... The post counts don't really lie and those that participate lots also read lots and reading can be learning. I have learned to trust the opinions and feedback from Paul (Decon), Blake (Blerv), Chuck (chuck_roxas45), BAL, bh49, tonydahose (Tony), Evil D (David), The Mastiff (Joe), Sequimite (Greg), dbcad, gull wing, philipsted (Ted), kbuzbee (Ken), Cliff Stamp, razorsharp (Travis), and Ankerson (Jim). This is not a complete list, just a small summary of the fellow forumites whom have taught me something (directly or otherwise).