I've had a stropping epiphany..

[Fancier]

I can't tell if that is sharpening or just part of his quality control ritual....

[unit]

I can't tell if that is sharpening or just part of his quality control ritual....

It is stropping and it truly refines the edge on a straight razor. The differences of good stropping can be felt during the shave (I have verified this numerous times )

[Cliff Stamp]

Simply because people have been doing it, is not an argument that it should be done. People used to drill holes in peoples head to let out evil spirits for a very long time as well, but it is likely anyone would argue that is a sensible modern practice.

Assuming an edge has been properly shaped by optimal abrasives, what is stropping on your hand going to do to effect the edge in a positive manner?

[unit]

Simply because people have been doing it, is not an argument that it should be done. People used to drill holes in peoples head to let out evil spirits for a very long time as well, but it is likely anyone would argue that is a sensible modern practice.

Assuming an edge has been properly shaped by optimal abrasives, what is stropping on your hand going to do to effect the edge in a positive manner?

I am the wrong person to ask. I cannot explain the processes that take place. The fact that I cannot explain it does not negate it however. Get a straight razor, learn to use it and see for yourself...that is the best I can suggest.

Honestly, I really do not care to argue with you or anyone else about this as I have demonstrated the effects and results to myself numerous times. If you want to believe it is analogous to drilling a hole in your head, enjoy yourself.

[Paradiggum]

I've heard of stropping on your palm. The only time I saw someone do it was at the cutting competition at the Blade show. It was years ago so I don't remember who it was or at what stage in the competition.

[timberweasel]

Yup. Jerry Fisk comes to mind... (jump to 06:10)

[video=youtube;DzBSjQFWyhM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzBSjQFWyhM[/video]

[IceCold]

Stropped on my bed sheet, Para 2 I could swear it made a difference, not as rough or toothy, just a smooth push cut. Seconds before it was toothy.

[Evil D]

Stropped on my bed sheet, Para 2 I could swear it made a difference, not as rough or toothy, just a smooth push cut. Seconds before it was toothy.

That may well have been a burr that you straightened out.

[Cliff Stamp]

Get a straight razor, learn to use it and see for yourself...that is the best I can suggest.

I have been shaving for quite some time so I am decently familiar with them.

Honestly, I really do not care to argue with you or anyone else about this as I have demonstrated the effects and results to myself numerous times.

You have honed an edge to the appropriate finish with an abrasive and seen stropping on leather improve the sharpness?

Stropping on leather isn't analogous to drilling holes in your head, however making an argument simply because people have done it as a point of contention allows the latter if you permit the former.

[Cliff Stamp]

That may well have been a burr that you straightened out.

It is mechanical deformation, as an example I demonstrated awhile back how you can strop on anything to align the edge, using for example a soft plastic cutting board to align the edge on a kitchen knife. All that happens is that as you press into the material it starts to compress and at some point it is so compressed that the force to continue compressing it is higher than the force that the edge can withstand. However all this can do to a sharp edge is to degrade it. If stropping on leather improves the edge it was not properly sharpened in the first place, there is no difference between a knife or axe or razor in this regard, the physics is exactly the same for how they all cut.

[Evil D]

It is mechanical deformation, as an example I demonstrated awhile back how you can strop on anything to align the edge, using for example a soft plastic cutting board to align the edge on a kitchen knife. All that happens is that as you press into the material it starts to compress and at some point it is so compressed that the force to continue compressing it is higher than the force that the edge can withstand. However all this can do to a sharp edge is to degrade it. If stropping on leather improves the edge it was not properly sharpened in the first place, there is no difference between a knife or axe or razor in this regard, the physics is exactly the same for how they all cut.

I've seen you post this many times, and it's something that usually rolls through my head while i'm trying to put the finishing touches on an edge. Lately as i've been paying with course micro bevels, i'm finding that i have a very hard time not creating a burr no matter how light the pressure i use is, because my back bevel is so steep compared to my micro bevel, and the stone is course and cuts so fast. No matter what i do i can't seem to micro bevel and leave the edge without a burr that i can feel with my finger tips (which i've trained to be pretty sensitive to the presence of a burr). Besides stropping (which up to this point is my only solution) what can i do to avoid what you're talking about and bring that course edge to the apex without creating a burr?

[Cliff Stamp]

No matter what i do i can't seem to micro bevel and leave the edge without a burr that i can feel with my finger tips (which i've trained to be pretty sensitive to the presence of a burr).

If the edge deforms then the force on the edge is higher than the abrasive capacity, this means the stone can no longer cut the steel and instead it is just deforming it. The solution has to be a combination of :

-clean the stone (absolutely no burnishing can be tolerated)
-flatten the stone
-reduce the force (5-10 grams)
-shorten the distance of travel
-cross cut the scratches

[Evil D]

If the edge deforms then the force on the edge is higher than the abrasive capacity, this means the stone can no longer cut the steel and instead it is just deforming it. The solution has to be a combination of :

-clean the stone (absolutely no burnishing can be tolerated)
-flatten the stone
-reduce the force (5-10 grams)
-shorten the distance of travel
-cross cut the scratches

Thanks, i'll keep all that in mind. Right now i'm only using the weight of the stones themselves, but i can try to use less pressure and look into the other things too. I'm pretty sure they're clean as i clean them between uses. I'll look into making shorter strokes and see if that helps.

[dj moonbat]

Cross cutting the scratches, with a very light touch, lets you abrade the wire edge away ever so slowly, rather than trying to pop it off with a strop. I haven't been doing it this way long, but I think the past few edges I' got using this method are more durable than those that I finished off with a strop.

I do still use a strop in between honings, but I've pretty much come around to Cliff's POV that finishing off a honing by fatiguing the wire edge rather than abrading it away is sub-optimal.

[Cliff Stamp]

Just to clarify this isn't an idea I originated. About 15 years ago I was having a discussion on line about limits of sharpness and a bunch of us started seeing what we could do. We ended up being able to push cut newsprint with low grit edges about 3-5 inches from the point it was being held. This is a pure push cut which is perpendicular in all three planes, i.e, no slicing motion at all. While I was tooling around doing this it quickly became obvious that the extent of the burr on the edge was the limiting factor far more than anything else. At the same time I read an article by Wayne Goddard on burr removal on a stone and Jeff Clark posted a very detailed burr removal step which uses very high angles. What I do is based on those two sources with a few personal additions (minimal travel, ensure stones are flat/clean, detress the edge before sharpening, cross cut the scratch pattern, etc.) .