Any Scout leaders or parents out there?

[kbuzbee]

My 9yo grandson is considering joining the Boy Scouts. If he does I want to get him his first pocket knife, but it's been many, MANY years since I was in Scouting. Initially I thought I might still have my old carbon steel BSA knife kicking around here somewhere. It would have been great to pass that down. But it seems to be long gone. Failing that, I was looking through current offerings and found something similar looking currently offered by Case (model 8055)

So my questions are (because things change and, as I mentioned, it's been a long time ):

When would you get him one? Initially? Before his first camp? When he asks?

Is a traditional BSA knife the "right" thing? I can't honestly recall ever using the can opener, screw driver, awl etc on my old BSA, just the blade. Case (and others) now make BSA knives without all the clap trap. Just 1-3 blades, varying by model. Or should (can?) I just get him a Spydie and be done with it?

Any thoughts or recommendations?

Thanks,

Ken

[sal]

Hi Ken,

I would suggest the traditional BSA knife. I learned much with that knife when I was a Scout. Perhaps a Squeak as a back up. There will be plenty of time for him to learn about locks and steels as he grows, but basics are important. How old is he? Has he owned a knife before?

sal

[kbuzbee]

I would suggest the traditional BSA knife. I learned much with that knife when I was a Scout. Perhaps a Squeak as a back up. There will be plenty of time for him to learn about locks and steels as he grows, but basics are important. How old is he? Has he owned a knife before?

Hi Sal, he's 9 and yes, this would be his first pocket knife. So you'd recommend a model with all the non-blade stuff in it?

Like you, I learned a lot with my BSA knife. Mostly about sharpening. But I can't remember using the other "tools" even once. Could just be my memory

Ken

[APS]

When I was in the Boy Scouts I carried a Victorinox Huntsman and used the blades, scissors, can opener and saw. But outside of scouts I have used the other tools on a SAK often. I think that the Scout/SAK pattern knife will help him learn how to respect a non locking blade and how valuable having some tools on you can be like using the screwdriver to pry and not your knife blade. Though I don't often carry a SAK any longer I do have multitools around and carry a keychain leatherman for the small tools and have NEVER broken a blade tip.
Having had the Scout pattern knives in the past, I think that a Victorinox model would be a better quality choice. For a 9 year old something in the 85mm or 91mm length. Tinker, Super Tinker (tinker with scissors), Fieldmaster (Super Tinker with saw), Spartan, Climber (spartan with scissors), Huntsman (Climber with saw). Too thick a handle and the knife becomes a little difficult to use.

[kbuzbee]

I think that a Victorinox model would be a better quality choice.

Good points! Thanks!

So you think Victorinox (specifically in this style knife) offers higher quality than Case? Interesting. I would have thought just the opposite...

Ken

[phaust]

Good points! Thanks!

So you think Victorinox (specifically in this style knife) offers higher quality than Case? Interesting. I would have thought just the opposite...

Ken

The common perspective on Case over on Bladeforums in their "Traditionals" subforum is that for standard models (i.e., not the Case-Bose collabs and a few others), f&f is hit-or-miss to such a degree that it's best only to buy in person unless you're willing to deal with sending it in (on that note, their customer service is good, so there won't be a problem if you're willing to send it in). Victorinox, on the other hand, is perhaps the best knife company in the world when it comes to consistency.

edit: Getting back to your original question, the last time I was in Boy Scouts was 8-9 years ago now, but I was in from Cub Scouts on up and don't remember ever seeing a traditional BSA knife, but there were plenty of Vic's.

edit2: I think AG Russell posted over on BF that he was working on a BSA style knife. Depending on when you need it, that might be worth waiting for. (Now this is getting ridiculous, but edit 3: Found the thread, and he posted that in March last year http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... mium-Scout

[1623]

Ken,

My son will be 9 in February and he just started his second year of Scouts. He's a Bear now and this is the time when he has the opportunity to earn his knife badge.

He has two Leatherman Squirt tools that I gave him 3 months ago and thus far (sans one minor incident) he's been very respectful and safe with them.

Personally, I have three on the table that I'm considering for him: a VG10 Dragonfly, Squeak and now the Pingo.

Part of me wants to take the traditional path and stick with an SAK however, I view this decision as a wonderful opportunity to bond with my son. He's acutely aware of my Spydeco collection and I feel that giving him one of his own could make another great connection...

"I have a knife just like my Dad's."

That said, presenting him with the option of choosing his own first knife may go deeper than I could imagine.

[phillipsted]

Hey Ken! I'm a Scout Leader and proud Papa to a new Tenderfoot scout (My youngest - 11 years old). I assume your son already has earned his Whittling Chip card. This gives him the right to carry his knife to Scout functions wherever the knife is otherwise legal and appropriate.

I started out my son with a Camillus Cub Scout knife and quickly became disenchanted with it. I remember having one when I was a kid - but the memories couldn't overcome the fact that these knives are now cheap imitations of what they once were. Half the boys in our Den had damage to their knives before summer camp.

I also believe that these knives aren't particularly safe for beginners' fingers. The boys end up spending so much time fiddling with the opening and closing of tools, they don't spend time learning basic knife mechanics. They are "gimmicky." In addition, the steel isn't particularly good and doesn't keep an edge very long. Weak slip joints and dull edges are a recipe for disaster. That's my $0.02, Ken...

So I went out and got my son a regular production Centofante and gave him a small cordura pouch for his belt. This knife (as we all know) is very ergonomic, easy to open and close, and has a lock back for safety. I also made sure he knew about different knife locks and slip joints so he always looked at the mechanism before working with a knife. He really has grown to love this knife.

He has also gotten his Father's taste for knives - and has acquired several additional knives in the last year - including a Gerber Gator, a Buck Crosslock, a Leatherman, and a set of Spyderco Bugs. He's made paracord lanyards for several items in his kit and is getting skilled with knots. I also gifted him my old 90s vintage SharpMaker (the one with the single slots in a cordura pouch) and he is learning sharpening.

I'll tell you - it is really fun watching young ones develop these "life skills"!

TedP
Eagle Scout, Class of 1976

[APS]

So you think Victorinox (specifically in this style knife) offers higher quality than Case? Interesting. I would have thought just the opposite...
Ken

Yes, and for less money. It's the advantage of having a set of tools that are simply put together in different combinations for different models. A Tinker can be had for less than $20. They also have a series of metal alox handled knives with less tools but of sturdier construction.

Of course as you know a locking single bladed knife is safer. However I don't think that you can truly learn safe knife handling without the risk associated with a slipjoint.

If you are interested I have a Victorinox Tinker, SuperTinker, alox Pioneer and a Wenger S111 all in excellent shape. You are welcome to one of them free of charge just PM me the mailing address.
Adam
Eagle Scout, Class of 93

[kbuzbee]

The common perspective on Case over on Bladeforums ... Victorinox, on the other hand, is perhaps the best knife company in the world when it comes to consistency.

Excellent info, thanks! I really don't have much experience with either brand. (none in the past 25 years! )

edit2: I think AG Russell posted over on BF that he was working on a BSA style knife. Depending on when you need it, that might be worth waiting for. (Now this is getting ridiculous, but edit 3: Found the thread, and he posted that in March last year http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... mium-Scout

That is interesting. Appreciate the heads up.

and now the Pingo.

Pingo is leading my thoughts if I choose to go with a Spydies. I would have killed for a Pingo when I was in Scouting.

Hey Sal, how about an official BSA Pingo?

I assume your son already has earned his Whittling Chip card. This gives him the right to carry his knife to Scout functions wherever the knife is otherwise legal and appropriate.

Thanks Ted! I figured someone here was active.

A. Grandson B. No, he's not even IN Scouting yet, it's something he's expressing interest in. (in my day we called it a Tote-n-chip card)

I started out my son with a Camillus Cub Scout knife and quickly became disenchanted with it. I remember having one when I was a kid - but the memories couldn't overcome the fact that these knives are now cheap imitations of what they once were. Half the boys in our Den had damage to their knives before summer camp.

Kinda where I am. I'd think the Vic's and maybe even the Cases might be better, but still....

I also believe that these knives aren't particularly safe for beginners' fingers. The boys end up spending so much time fiddling with the opening and closing of tools, they don't spend time learning basic knife mechanics. They are "gimmicky." In addition, the steel isn't particularly good and doesn't keep an edge very long. Weak slip joints and dull edges are a recipe for disaster. That's my $0.02, Ken...

... and do you ever see the kids "using" the other tools?

So I went out and got my son a regular production Centofante

So I take it there's no specific "requirements"?

Great input, guys!

Ken

[jnichols2]

I vote with Sal. I still remember mine from 1957. It wasn't a "pocket knife" or a "Swiss Army Knife" -- it was a "Genuwine Boy Scout Knife".

I searched for a link, and can't believe all the stuff that' being sold as "Boy Scout Knife".

Here are links for two traditional models:
http://www.amazon.com/KN1118-Boys-Scout ... B004WGYTLE
http://www.scoutstuff.org/bsa/camping/k ... knife.html

We got ours through the Scoutmaster, and they were designed not to be very sharp. If the one you get is real sharp, dull it down to nine year old level. Please don't give him a hair popping Spyderco.

P. S, Yes; I actually did eat with the fork and spoon on camping trips. Then later, I kind of graduated to the model without them. It's all part of the Scout experience.

[ASmitty]

I vote with Sal. I still remember mine from 1957. It wasn't a "pocket knife" or a "Swiss Army Knife" -- it was a "Genuwine Boy Scout Knife".

I searched for a link, and can't believe all the stuff that' being sold as "Boy Scout Knife".

Here are links for two traditional models:
http://www.amazon.com/KN1118-Boys-Scout ... B004WGYTLE
http://www.scoutstuff.org/bsa/camping/k ... knife.html

We got ours through the Scoutmaster, and they were designed not to be very sharp. If the one you get is real sharp, dull it down to nine year old level. Please don't give him a hair popping Spyderco.

P. S, Yes; I actually did eat with the fork and spoon on camping trips. Then later, I kind of graduated to the model without them. It's all part of the Scout experience.

One problem I have with the "Genuine Boy Scout Knives" is that they're made in china since Camillus went out of business. Now, I don't have a problem with China made knives in principal, but without knowing the maker, I would question the quality until I tried one.

One of the first lessons I learned as a Cub Scout is that a dull knife is far more dangerous than a sharp knife. While a sharp knife deserves respect and safe handling, a dull knife can lead to injury far more easily due to its inability to do its job. Please don't dull your grandson's knife.

I would go with a Victorinox SAK as a Cub Scout's first knife. It has proven, reliable, consistent quality that I am familiar with. It also has the added bonus of offering several models that come marked with the Boy Scout logo that are designed to be used by scouts.

You also inquired when would be the right time to get him a knife. He can't carry it to scouting functions until he's earned his Whittling Chip (Totin Chip for Boy Scouts). Honestly, I would wait until after he has earned that to get him a knife of his own as the temptation to take it with him when he shouldn't (especially if other scouts who already have their Whittling Chip have knives) could be too great and he might get into trouble. However, even if you don't get him his own right away, I would begin mentoring him about knives from the get go which will help him prepare for his Whittling chip sooner.

[mikerestivo]

Hi Ken -

My son has been in scouts since he was in first grade and he is in 8th now and working on his Eagle rank. I served as den leader and cubmaster when he was in cub scouts.

Our scout troop has a 3 inch blade limit for knives carried at scout activities and functions. Since BSA offers at least one knife with a 5 inch blade, I don't think the 3 inch limit is a rule for the national organization. You may want to check with your local council on this. After being on many campouts scouting youth, I could not recommend having a bunch of scouts waving 5 inch blades around. We have some great kids in our troop, but they are still kids and there are some you have to watch constantly with knives, axes and fire. In a way, our scouts are much like the general population - some are responsible and think before they do things, and some don't always exercise good judgement and are impulsive at times.

I hate to disagree with Sal (but I don't think he will mind since I am about to give his company a solid plug). For the price of the scout knives these days versus the quality, I think you are better off going with a Spyderco. Sal did not have his own company's offerings when he was a kid, and I would wager that the quality of the knives BSA offered then was better than now. The other thing that pains me a bit is to see a knife with "Boy Scouts of America" on the handle and "China" stamped on the blade, but that's the world we live in.

My boy is the son of a knife nut, and as such, he has a Meerkat, a G10 Poliwog, a Salt, and a serrated Delica. He has carried all of them over the years at campouts, hikes, functions and such. My vote would be for a Spyderco versus a BSA knife. The Spyderco would be a knife that should last awhile and one that he can use as he grows into adulthood. I don't know too many adults that still carry their BSA knives with them. The folks that I know that still have their old BSA knives hold onto them as an heirloom, bascially.

I know that there are several models of SAK's with the scout logo on them. I don't know much about these and have only seen them on the internet.

As you can see my opinion is biased by my fondness for Spyderco, but I hope this offers some help to you.

Mike

[jnichols2]

One problem I have with the "Genuine Boy Scout Knives" is that they're made in china since Camillus went out of business. Now, I don't have a problem with China made knives in principal, but without knowing the maker, I would question the quality until I tried one.

One of the first lessons I learned as a Cub Scout is that a dull knife is far more dangerous than a sharp knife. While a sharp knife deserves respect and safe handling, a dull knife can lead to injury far more easily due to its inability to do its job. Please don't dull your grandson's knife.

I would go with a Victorinox SAK as a Cub Scout's first knife. It has proven, reliable, consistent quality that I am familiar with. It also has the added bonus of offering several models that come marked with the Boy Scout logo that are designed to be used by scouts.

You also inquired when would be the right time to get him a knife. He can't carry it to scouting functions until he's earned his Whittling Chip (Totin Chip for Boy Scouts). Honestly, I would wait until after he has earned that to get him a knife of his own as the temptation to take it with him when he shouldn't (especially if other scouts who already have their Whittling Chip have knives) could be too great and he might get into trouble. However, even if you don't get him his own right away, I would begin mentoring him about knives from the get go which will help him prepare for his Whittling chip sooner.

As for a "Made in China", remember, he's a nine year old boy, and it's appropriate. I never did believe in giving kids $300 sneakers, iPhones, OR $200 knives. He will probably lose it at some point. If not, he will quickly outgrow it - THEN get him something a little better.

A truely dull knife may not be appropriate, but neither is something "scary sharp". Remember "The Three Bears" - not too dull, not sharp. That's what I meant by "nine year old level".

I've seen a lot of years, and a lot of boys. Heed my counsel.

[hiredgun]

I'll throw in too if I may. I have been involved with Scouts since I was 8 years old (Cub to Eagle). Now I am a Scoutmaster and have been a leader of some sort for the last 15 years or so. Also, I have an 11 year old son who is a 1st Class Boy Scout. All that being said, things aren't quite what they used to be. I love traditional slipjoints and I have my fair share of Case knives and a few other brands now mostly because of the nostalgia factor. I had an original Boy Scout Camillus when I was a boy and then a Buck 112. I loved that Buck because the blade would lock. It was also, along with the Buck 110, the most popular and cool knife in the world at the time. Fast forward to now and boys have been exposed to a variety of knives unheard of when I was a Scout. At all the boy scout camps I go to, the trading posts all have the same knives--cheap (but super cool looking in the boys' eyes), Chinese lockbacks. They can spent $6-$7 and get a knife like the rest of the boys carry. Despite the fact that a Swiss Army knife or other original Boy Scout clone may be more practical, have more tools and brings back fond memories for some of us, generally speaking, the boys don't want them. They want to be like the rest of the pack. On the other hand, some boys are just happy to have any knife that their Dads give them.

So, get a nice Byrd knife for starters. Although Chinese made, they aren't junk like I see in the trading posts. 8-12 year old boys lose and abuse knives like you can't believe. A Byrd is decent quality, looks cool, won't break the bank or your heart if it is lost and gives you and the boy a feel if he is going to take to knives at all.

FWIW, I'm a knife nut as many are around here and my son has been exposed to every type of knife known to man. He has a Byrd and a SAK Tinker and loves them for what they are. However, when he saw one of my Buck 110s 2 months ago, he thought it was so different and so cool looking with the shiny brass bolsters. I happened to be in Coeur D'Alene, Idaho a month ago and I took the Buck factory tour all by myself. I was in heaven! Guess what, I bought a Buck 112 Ranger for my son's 12th birthday on the 18th of this month. My heart is swelling with pride and joy at the thought that my only son is going to get the same knife I did when I was 12.

[kingm]

Eagle Scout and Scoutmaster of 7 years (so far) here.

First off, find out what your Troop/Pack and Council allow. While (despite many misconceptions/Scouting "urban legends") there are no limitations on what knife a Scout may carry, many units have their own restrictions. Most do not allow fixed blade knives. Some place a limit on blade length-- sometimes to the size of the palm, some times to a set length. Some units do not allow locking blades while others require them.
I would also avoid the official Scout knives sold by the BSA national supply stores with the exception of the Victroinox SAKs. Since Camillus went out of business they have been using unbranded knives from China. This may not be bad except I have encountered several of them my Scouts have and they are not of a very high quality especially for the price.

If you want to go the multi tool route, I would recommend one of the SAKs. You can even get them from the BSA supply catalog or store. The only problem with multi tools is that some boys are too tempted to play with the many tools on them.

If you want to keep things simple/lest tempting and go with a single blade dedicated knife, both the Delica and Native are good choices that will not break the bank.

(I personally carry a Spyderco Bushcraft on my belt on most of my Troop camp outs.)

[phillipsted]

Guys - I concur with you. Fixed blades are not allowed for Scout carry at most Council and local camps around the country (in my experience). Fixed blades are OK to have in camp for food prep, chopping, etc. But are not allowed for general EDC. I don't think our Council/Troop have any hard-fast rules regarding length of knives. However, they do have a guideline regarding safety - and if an adult Leader thinks that the Scout is carrying a knife that is unsafe for the task at hand, he might be asked to stow or surrender it. This could be a length issue, or it could go the other way, like trying to cut a medium-sized tree limb with a small slippie. The objective is to teach the Scouts good mechanics and to always always think about safety first.

As for the sharp/dull debate - I'm a firm believer that you should teach the kids to respect the edge from an early age. Dull knives are simply dangerous and teach the Scouts bad habits.

HiredGun - I'm also with you with regard to nostalgia vs. what the Scouts want to use. My sons marvel at my SAKs - but drool over my Leathermans. They admire my Case knives - but want to carry my Spydercos. The purpose of the Father/Leader is to make sure they don't go out camping with a Dodo or Matriarch! :eek:

Great topic and good discussion!
TedP

[Drkknight614]

Best knife for a young scout IMO is a Victorinox SAK. It is pretty accepted, not going to scare people and is very useful. Plus its cheap so it he loses it or somehow breaks it, its not too much of a big deal. Its also small and easy to carry. Not to mention all of the features. I use to do wood work with the large blade all the time, had no issues with it at all. The tweezers are always great to have for splinters and such. The can opener and bottle opener is always handy. Everything on it I have used st least once on camping trips and my times in scouting. Mine never failed me. Get him one with a wood saw on it, I used that a lot as well. But get a Victorniox sak, they make special boy scout ones also. The bsa knives BSA sells now are all outsourced chinese imitations now unfortunately, horrible imo thatthey decided to go that route.

Get him a SAK, when he gets older and into his teens then consider introducing him to single bladed folders and fixed blades. Btw Im an Eagle Scout.

[Pinetreebbs]

This is a great discussion and some great advice. I was a Cub and Boy Scout, our two sons were Boy Scouts and my wife and I served as board members our local Cub/Boy Scout packs/troops and our district for eight years until we moved to another state.

Some boys will have an appreciation for a fine knife, but most will be learning that appreciation at best. A suitable and less expensive knife is a good one. Once they demonstrate responsibility you might consider an upgrade. Just remember they are young boys/men and sometimes the best lessons are learned when they screw up.

Please do check local laws regarding knives in your son's school and caution him accordingly. I carried pocket knives all through school and beyond. Unfortunately in the world of today the majority of school districts do not allow students to carry a knife. Personally I think it is nonsense but it is the law or their local policy and with the pressure to protect our children school districts are prone to use a zero tolerance policy. Zero tolerance policies unfairly lump Scouts in with thugs and gang members. Getting caught with a knife in school can have very serious implications for a child.

[kbuzbee]

This is a great discussion and some great advice.

It truely is and I appreciate everyone's input. A lot of good things to think about. And it sounds like I have some time to give it some time to do just that.

Ken