To Chisel or not to Chisel

[Dr. Snubnose]

For a while I have been hoping that Spyderco would make a Kiridashi type knife especially after reading one of Doc's threads on a custom Kiri he just got. Of course the problem I see is the chisel grind would probably be right handed. Mind you, for a Kiridashi it wouldn't matter for some cuts but some I would think it would matter like sharpening a pencil which I do quite often with my knives. I don't get the chance to cut much food but I can see how cutting a tomato would make a difference.

I don't have any chisel ground knives but would be interested if Spyderco made one.

I too might be interested in maybe a gentlemen's folder with a chisel grind from Spyderco, would be interesting to say the least, might even create a stir.....Doc :)

[Dr. Snubnose]

It seems to me that people who I have spoke with whose only exposure to the chisel grind knives was crap knives from Taiwan and China made Tanto Style from something like 440A steel, cut from 4mm stock with a screw button that slipped into a cheap plastic sheath for retention....yup it's those people who hate the chisel grind...I have kiridashis (tease coming up) In S30V, 1095, 440c, 5160, Carbon Steel, Damascus, D2, CPM154, Steel Files, and even G-10 knives with a chisel grind. It's a whole new ball game guys.....New Steel makes Chisel Grinds Glow, where in the past with crap steel, their performance was no less than dismal and disappointing....maybe see what a chisel grind in a decent steel is like.....I think not only will you be really suprised but impressed as well.....Doc :)

[SolidState]

1095 and 1086 make sweet chisel-ground tools. I am now jealous. Forge-welded cable is also great.

[Blerv]

All the more reason it would be fun to try a Spyderco in the grind. I hate having a biased view based of something based on other variables. At least this way the grind and heat treat could be trusted as performance oriented (vs price targeted).

[Milkman]

I always see a few kiridashis for sale over at Ecos Knives. Though they're pretty affordable, I'm never in a position to buy one.

Outside of a cheap Mantis karambit, my only experience with a chisel grind is with my Jun Silva ginunting. At first I had some reservations on the effectiveness of the grind. Then I reminded myself it was freakin' SWORD. Anyone on the receiving end is going to have a bad time.

[jackknifeh]

I always see a few kiridashis for sale over at Ecos Knives. Though they're pretty affordable, I'm never in a position to buy one.

Outside of a cheap Mantis karambit, my only experience with a chisel grind is with my Jun Silva ginunting. At first I had some reservations on the effectiveness of the grind. Then I reminded myself it was freakin' SWORD. Anyone on the receiving end is going to have a bad time.

Would they be worse off than if the sword was sharpened with a standard "V" grind? I bet either would smart. :)

Jack

[dete]

I always thought that the chisel grind looked barbaric, but then after I was taught that it was a good grind for combat knives, I've taken a huge liking towards them.

Microscopically speaking... is a cut made by a chisel grind less even (because the edge is not centered) making a slightly nastier wound or is this too much wishful thinking?

[Dr. Snubnose]

You know doc, what I'd really like is to have a knife with a chisel grind on both sides.

YaH KNow Chuck...it already exists in a product called The Urban Dart by Cold Steel, I got one in my robe pocket right now and it's a pretty neat dagger for RGEI.......... besides it has a left hand and right hand chisel grind....all in one hmmm how's that! Doc :)

[Donut]

You know, I was thinking about this whole Chisel grind thing.

A chisel grind essentially cuts the width of your edge in half, so it should offer you approximately half of the wear resistance with approximately double the cutting power.

I would imagine for Self Defense, that tradeoff would be great. For general use, it may or may not be great for you.

[jackknifeh]

You know, I was thinking about this whole Chisel grind thing.

A chisel grind essentially cuts the width of your edge in half, so it should offer you approximately half of the wear resistance with approximately double the cutting power.

I would imagine for Self Defense, that tradeoff would be great. For general use, it may or may not be great for you.

Since the bevel side is the only angle that is considered what is the angle range normally used. If my preference for a standard edge is 30 deg incl (15 per side) would I use the 15 deg angle for a chisel grind? That would be 7.5 deg per side. That's pretty thin IMO. Wouldn't the cutting performance and edge strength be the same as sharpening a standard edge at 7.5 deg per side? I see the only change in cutting is the blade would want to curve through the material when slicing. When stabbing I don't see any change at all.

OR, would you increase the angle on a chisel grind to 30 degrees on just the one side. It may be obvious but I'll go ahead and say I don't understand any benefit to a knife blade to have a chisel grind. Sword either but I know nothing about swords at all.

Jack

[jackknifeh]

You know, I was thinking about this whole Chisel grind thing.

A chisel grind essentially cuts the width of your edge in half, so it should offer you approximately half of the wear resistance with approximately double the cutting power.

I would imagine for Self Defense, that tradeoff would be great. For general use, it may or may not be great for you.

Since the bevel side is the only angle that is considered what is the angle range normally used? If my preference for a standard edge is 30 deg incl (15 per side) would I use the 15 deg angle for a chisel grind? That would be 7.5 deg per side. That's pretty thin IMO. Wouldn't the cutting performance and edge strength be the same as sharpening a standard edge at 7.5 deg per side? I see the only change in cutting is the blade would want to curve through the material when slicing. When stabbing I don't see any change at all.

OR, would you increase the angle on a chisel grind to 30 degrees on just the one side. It may be obvious but I'll go ahead and say I don't understand any benefit to a knife blade to have a chisel grind. Sword either but I know nothing about swords at all.

Jack

[Evil D]

It seems to me that people who I have spoke with whose only exposure to the chisel grind knives was crap knives from Taiwan and China made Tanto Style from something like 440A steel, cut from 4mm stock with a screw button that slipped into a cheap plastic sheath for retention....yup it's those people who hate the chisel grind...I have kiridashis (tease coming up) In S30V, 1095, 440c, 5160, Carbon Steel, Damascus, D2, CPM154, Steel Files, and even G-10 knives with a chisel grind. It's a whole new ball game guys.....New Steel makes Chisel Grinds Glow, where in the past with crap steel, their performance was no less than dismal and disappointing....maybe see what a chisel grind in a decent steel is like.....I think not only will you be really suprised but impressed as well.....Doc :)

Gonna have to disagree with ya Doc. For me a chisel grind could be made out of any steel imaginable and i wouldn't be interested. It's the edge geometry and the way the shape of the blade cuts that i have a problem with. They just don't measure up to a FFG blade for me.

[Dr. Snubnose]

Jack: A chisel grind gives you a much more acute angle than a double-sided grind. It just cuts better, which is what you want a knife to do. I'll quote custom knifemaker Daniel Fairly. "With a chisel grind, you grind at 20 degrees and you get a 20 degree cutting edge. With a V grind and the same 20 degree grind, you grind (each side) at 20 degrees and you have a 40 degree cutting edge. Smaller angle equals better cutting performance for something like slicing. Also, with the flat grind, you have a nice large flat surface that you can use to orient for a very precise cutting thickness." For SD a Chisel Grind can be super effective, if and I repeat if you know what techniques to use and in the case of different shaped kiridashi's and blade angles, the techniques from knife style to style might change.....Doc :) oh..Evil you really need to try a zero full flat ground dashi before you throw your hands up in disgust....might make you take a second look...

[The Deacon]

Jack: A chisel grind gives you a much more acute angle than a double-sided grind. It just cuts better, which is what you want a knife to do. I'll quote custom knifemaker Daniel Fairly. "With a chisel grind, you grind at 20 degrees and you get a 20 degree cutting edge. With a V grind and the same 20 degree grind, you grind (each side) at 20 degrees and you have a 40 degree cutting edge. Smaller angle equals better cutting performance for something like slicing. Also, with the flat grind, you have a nice large flat surface that you can use to orient for a very precise cutting thickness." For SD a Chisel Grind can be super effective, if and I repeat if you know what techniques to use and in the case of different shaped kiridashi's and blade angles, the techniques from knife style to style might change.....Doc :) oh..Evil you really need to try a zero full flat ground dashi before you throw your hands up in disgust....might make you take a second look...

What Mr Fairly said is true Doc, but it's also quite misleading. If you want a knife with the edge ground 20º inclusive, you can achieve that either with a blade chisel ground at 20º on one side, or a blade ground at 10º per side. Either style can be zero edge ground, either style can be ground thin or thick behind the edge bevel. A properly oriented chisel grind is an advantage when cutting thin slices from a block of relatively hard material, as it has less tendency to wander. It also has an advantage when precision cutting thin material against a straightedge or pattern. That, IIRC, was the original intended purpose of a kiridashi. As for the rest, that can pretty much be said of any grind, blade shape, or weapon for that matter.

[jackknifeh]

Anyone ever tried a chisel grind on a machete? I use one infrequently for light brush. I'm thinking putting a 20 deg chisel grind in it may cut better than the thick convex edge (like a hatchet) that is on it now.

Any thoughts on this from you guys who frequent the jungles of Brazil? :)

Jack

[The Deacon]

Anyone ever tried a chisel grind on a machete? I use one infrequently for light brush. I'm thinking putting a 20 deg chisel grind in it may cut better than the thick convex edge (like a hatchet) that is on it now.

Any thoughts on this from you guys who frequent the jungles of Brazil? :)

Jack

Haven't hacked my way through any Brazilian jungles, just some suburban and rural NY underbrush, but most machetes I've seen or used have been relatively soft, so I suspect that a 20º included angle edge, regardless of whether it was chisel or flat, would roll like crazy.

[jackknifeh]

Haven't hacked my way through any Brazilian jungles, just some suburban and rural NY underbrush, but most machetes I've seen or used have been relatively soft, so I suspect that a 20º included angle edge, regardless of whether it was chisel or flat, would roll like crazy.

I have a Cold Steel machete with 1055 carbon steel (Rc 60-64 depending on HT). It feels pretty hard when I sharpen it and it takes a very sharp edge. If I were going to chop a little tree I'd use a hatchet with a convex edge. I've heard a convex edge helps to keep the hatchet blade from getting stuck in the wood. A machete OTOH would be used (my me) for lighter duty like very small limbs, brush, etc. So, I'm thinking a much thinner edge should be ok. I won't be going through any knot holes or anything like that. No telling how long it would take to reprofile the machete with an EP. I may need to get the drill and grinding stone but I'd hate to ruin the HT. Maybe if I keep the speed low and don't let the grinding stone stay in one spot it would be ok. I only paid $18 for the machete. I have been VERY happy with what I have gotten for $18.

Anyway, I thought it might be a nice experiment to put a chisel grind on the thing since it wasn't expensive and it's not a tool I use a lot. I think I'd put a 30 degree bevel on it. With one side of the blade being flat and the bevel being 30 degrees it should have the strength of a V edge with 15 deg per side. That ought to hold up pretty good I think.

Jack

[Blerv]

It seems to me besides the quirky following the true merit is a cost savings. The question is how much a savings it would pass on to the ELU if say a run of Para2's were done accordingly.

[jackknifeh]

I have never owned a chisel edge knife so I have never sharpened one. I have sharpened chisels though. On a chisel the back side is flat and there is one bevel that goes to the edge (no micro-bevel). I've never thought about it but I don't think a chisel would work well with a convex bevel. It needs to be flat. That is easy to accomplish with a straight edge that is 1" long or less. What about knife edges with belly? Do you try to keep the bevel flat and only remove the burr on the back side when sharpening a chisel grind knife? Micro bevels on the bevel side of a knife blade would be fine I suppose. What I'm getting at is what is the preference? Micro-bevel or not? Convex bevel or not?

Jack

[chuck_roxas45]

It seems to me besides the quirky following the true merit is a cost savings. The question is how much a savings it would pass on to the ELU if say a run of Para2's were done accordingly.

Most bolos here are chisel mainly because it means less work for the smith. I'd agree that a chisel, whatever the merits may be, also means cost savings since it obviously means less steps in production.