I might have come to the end of my super steel lust

[arty]

I do like knives with ZDP189 or other hard steel, but also like VG10 and 154CM. It all depends on what I want to do.
I happen to prefer the use of an old fashioned box cutter for cutting up most cardboard. This is the type that takes a
single edge razor blade. You can reverse the blade when it gets dull, and you pop out the blade by hitting the base of the cutter
on your leg. Just be sure to watch what you are doing...and make sure that you smack the correct side when doing this.
I find that these razor blades stay sharp for a very long time. The edge geometry is great, and the thin blade zips through cardboard with
much less effort than a pocket knife. They are so flat that you can just drop one in a shirt pocket. Box cutters can be had for $1 to $1.50 and will save you much sharpening time. I save the Spydercos for rope or opening packages or
bags of fertilizer, etc. If I need to cut zip ties, I reach for a diagonal wire cutter, etc.
I would hate to have to drag the blade of a pocket knife through carboard, since it would take more effort. I am not a fan of a utility knife for cutting cardboard, just because of the size.

[Jet B]

I really like VG10 but the edge retention just isn't near as good for what i use it for. Difficulty of sharpening really is irrelevant to me, i have no problem at all sharpening 20CP so that argument doesn't mean much to me. I have a Centofante 4 which i do use occasionally and i love that knife a lot. For what i use a knife for i've found that S30V is really the lowest option, although calling VG10 a low option is cutting it a little short. If i found myself cutting less cardboard, i wouldn't hesitate to EDC VG10.

Sounds like you need to try some M390 then... I like mine, I have cut up some cardboard but not nearly as much as you go through in a day. I hear M4 is good too although I haven't tried it yet. I'm looking forward to trying out the CPM 3V when the Tuff comes out. If you really don't want to go any less than S30V but don't like the idea of wearing down your hard to replace sprint knives... Just pick up a plain S30V Para 2 and put a good stout micro bevel on it to minimize the chipping and just face the fact that you will have to replace it every year.

[wvguy8258]

Hmm...it seems if you wanted to cut cardboard with a spyderco, a serrated edge might be the way to go.

[bchan]

Hmm...it seems if you wanted to cut cardboard with a spyderco, a serrated edge might be the way to go.

If you are going to go serrated, may as well go for a serrated H1 knife. You may try that as an experiment.

[jezabel]

I'll throw in my 2 cents...

Chipping has and always will be a pet peeve of mine. I've no safe safe queens, my relatively small collection of knives are working tools. I do use my knives hard, and have had jobs in the past where I've been doing 1000+ cuts a day. I've encountered some types of card board which have devastated the edges of the three knives I had on me (D2, M4 & 440V) in less than half an hour.
Any way over the past few years I've been lucky enough to find what steels work for me in different applications. I'm not expecting one steel to be able to "do it all" any more. Keep experimenting you will find something that works.

Some of what I've discovered so far is:

• VG10 is highly under rated IMO while it might not have the highest wear resistance, it generally doesn't chip unless the blade comes into contact with something harder than itself. It's also easy to keep the edge alive during the day by stropping. I mostly use this for light duty & precision work though.
• CPMS30V .... I've had the worst luck with this, no matter how I bevel, sharpen or refine the edge, it chips if I look at it sideways. S30v does not like me, nor do I like it.
• CPMD2 was the first steel I encountered that stood up to a days work, it loves a coarse edge, and does not chip easily. A great allround general EDC steel.
• CPM440V (in SE of course!) this is my go to steel when I'm either cutting huge amounts of cardboard or any other sort of aggressive slicing. 440v holds a working edge like no other. Yes it' can be a pain in the rear to sharpen. It can chip, but it earns them if you know what I mean... (the earlier HT a little more so, but the earlier HT is also easier to sharpen and takes a finer edge) BUY AN SE 440V MILLIE NOW!
• CPMS90V is another with excellent wear resistance, there is isn't much I can say that hasn't already been said though...
• CPMM4 is a personal favorite of mine, it will push cut all day long and still be shaving sharp afterwards. It will get "micro-chipping" when called into heavy slicing duties, but nothing I cant live with. Another reason I like this is that it responds well to stropping.
• M390 ... correct if I'm wrong here, but I think it was Mr Ankerson who said something like "M390 is everything S30V was hyped up to be" .... I couldn't agree more. This steel has not disappointed me in any way, it takes a very aggressive edge which wears exceptionally well, yet somehow it is still relatively easy to maintain.... sorta like a friendlier version of S90V IMO. Now I have managed to chip M390, however I was doing something completely stupid. The beauty of it was that the chips sharpened out quite easliy.

Hopefully that's of some help to some one....

J

[Evil D]

Hmm...it seems if you wanted to cut cardboard with a spyderco, a serrated edge might be the way to go.

I have never really seen the value of serrations when it comes to cutting cardboard. From my experience it tends to hang up and shred more than slice, and the blades are always thicker behind the edge. I started my Spyderco obsession with a SE Native, and that knife was the first and last SE knife i've bought aside from my SE/H1/hawkbill Ladybug.

[RIOT]

I have never really seen the value of serrations when it comes to cutting cardboard. From my experience it tends to hang up and shred more than slice, and the blades are always thicker behind the edge. I started my Spyderco obsession with a SE Native, and that knife was the first and last SE knife i've bought aside from my SE/H1/hawkbill Ladybug.

i agree.

im a die hard fan of serrated Spydercos! Cutting cardboard with a serrated edge sucks. It never stays to the exact line you want to cut & it tears (given serrated).

BUT it does cut it wether dull or sharp.

to cut cardboard correctly with a serrated edge is to use the plain edge tip against a flat surface kinda like an exacto blade.

[jezabel]

At least you've learn't what doesn't work for you. I abandoned my SE Native long ago, Hollow ground SE blades have never really suited my needs. Trust me though with it's FFG the SE Millie is an entirely different beast. When kept sharp and with good slicing technique there's really no stopping this knife, I've only ever experienced shredding when my blade is dull or the cardboard is wet.

J

[Slash]

Utility knives are made for cutting things like cardboard, use them and save your Spydie for looking at. Seriously though, if you're cutting a good amount of cardboard throughout the day why tear up your $200 knife when there are much better options available.

[mr_anderson]

I've noticed with cutting a lot of cardboard the thinner the blade, the duller it gets. If you need to cut a lot of cardboard and want to stick to Spyderco, you might want check out the Gayle Bradley. CPM-M4 is some pretty serious stuff.

[Brock O Lee]

I guess if you want to take full advantage of the super-steels, you have to learn to enjoy a non-shaving but long lasting working edge (Im still learning that btw...). IMO it is kinda pointless to sharpen these blades on a daily basis, just because it wouldn'd shave anymore or show tiny chips. Their strength is in the ability to keep a long working edge, not necessarily a shaving edge.

For me its still a gray area to undestand if micro 'chipping' is a problem. Or is it just the nature of normal edge wear on these high-carbide steels? I suspect the latter. Where to draw the line between micro chipping and chipping is the question.

I find it fascinating to learn and experience all the finer details about this hobby. :)

[chuck_roxas45]

I guess if you want to take full advantage of the super-steels, you have to learn to enjoy a non-shaving but long lasting working edge (Im still learning that btw...). IMO it is kinda pointless to sharpen these blades on a daily basis, just because it wouldn'd shave anymore or show tiny chips. Their strength is in the ability to keep a long working edge, not necessarily a shaving edge.

For me its still a gray area to undestand if micro 'chipping' is a problem. Or is it just the nature of normal edge wear on these high-carbide steels? I suspect the latter. Where to draw the line between micro chipping and chipping is the question.

I find it fascinating to learn and experience all the finer details about this hobby. :)

I think that you have hit the nail on the head with that Brock.

[Cliff Stamp]

Where to draw the line between micro chipping and chipping is the question.

The two types of failure in general would be based on the size of the chips compared to the size of the carbides. Chips which are about 0.1 mm in size and less can easily be caused by carbides coming out of the edge or pieces of steel coming out between large carbide aggregates. Chips which are significantly larger than that are more likely caused by gross fractures in the steel.

It however it usually easier to tell which type you are dealing with because they are caused by two different things. For example if you chop a knife into a piece of wood and hit a knot and the blade turns suddenly this can put enough force laterally on the edge that it can break a piece out of it because it can make the edge bend so far it can not return to true and cracks off. If the steel is really brittle and/or it is very cold this could even cause a direct impact failure.

However cardboard is very soft, you can tear it apart with your hands and no matter how fast you are cutting, even if your last name is Norris and your first name rhymes with Buck, you are not going to generate an impact/strength type failure, it is just a wear failure where a piece comes out of the edge due to carbide aggregates.

In short, there are two very different mechanisms which cause these chips and one generally happens below 0.1 mm and one generally happens above it.

[Brock O Lee]

Thanks Cliff, that explains it nicely...

[Zenith]

Based on the size it doesn't appear to be the steel itself fracturing as much as the edge just coming apart, this is likely simply due to the high volume of carbides and basically all you are seeing is the result of aggregates. In these PM steels the primary carbides are only a few microns in size but when they cluster in an aggregate this can be more than 10 microns easily. If the edge intersects one of these large aggregates then it is very likely going to end up as a weak point which will get rough as the carbide pops out of the edge. This is made even more dramatic if you hone to a very high polish and level of alignment (i.e. sharpness) and have a very low angle.

These steels in general are not really meant to keep this kind of edge - extremely fine and smooth cutting, they are made to cut that type of material well (cardboard) but generally do so at a low to moderate level of sharpness which they can keep on that material for a very long time. I would ask the question as to is this really the steel that will give you the performance you are looking for and I would think that AEB-L, or maybe even 19C27 would be more suitable. These will of course not have that long lasting edge retention with that rougher edge as they don't have the carbide volume to give the high wear resistance. But the edge composition is much more stable so they won't develop aggregate spots.

I do find the notion not to use the knife a bit odd, what else is it made to do. The only thing I would recommend is trying to stagger the cut contact point to make the wear a bit more even if possible. Note in regarding the angle, you only need to increase it

-wear you use it most (the base)
-just about half the depth of the chips (so it is a micro-bevel)

If you micro-bevel at 25-30 dps, but keep the micro-bevel very light as in just a few passes per side it will likely stop the aggregate wear and I doubt you could notice a significant loss in cutting ability as the bevel would be so narrow. You just need to make sure to work the primary angle to keep the micro from thickening.

First thing I thought about for some advice was: try a courser micro bevel. I sharpen my M4 to a high polish, then do a micro bevel with 600grit diamond (very lightly applied). It just cuts and cuts and cuts and cuts....one has to experiment to find what works for you.

[mr_anderson]

Remember this, Knives using CPM-M4 hold the record for for cutting in different categories in Bladesports. 21 plastic bottles, 15 strands of 1inch manilla rope, fastest to cut though a 2x4. I did a lot a research on it.

[jackknifeh]

In my experience with lots of different things we see improvements in steps rather than in ramps. Steel quality could improve in a smooth gradual (wheelchair ramp) fashion or in leaps and bound improvements (stair steps). What are called "super steels" that Spyderco uses are pretty much in the same category for the average knife user. That guy probably wouldn't even think about looking for a difference in VG-10 and M4. Purhaps the technology will jump in the future producing a blade steel that will hold an edge 10 times as long and not roll or chip. Then we would be into the "super-duper steels" era. Then you may develop a "super-duper steel" lust. :) For now you have enough knowledge and experience that it will be hard to blow your mind with another steel in the same performance range. It will need to be a super-duper steel. I'm just guessing.

Jack

[Jet B]

First thing I thought about for some advice was: try a courser micro bevel. I sharpen my M4 to a high polish, then do a micro bevel with 600grit diamond (very lightly applied). It just cuts and cuts and cuts and cuts....one has to experiment to find what works for you.

I read of others doing this course micro bevel. I think Ankerson recommended it too. I'd like to try it and was just wondering how the coarser edge helps with these super steels? I can already understand why do a micro bevel as it just strengthens the edge kind of like a lazy mans convex.

Also, would you strop the 600 grit micro bevel? Or just do those light 600 grit passes after stropping the edge?

I like the idea of keeping an aggressive cutting edge on my m390 for as long as possible.

[jackknifeh]

I read of others doing this course micro bevel. I think Ankerson recommended it too. I'd like to try it and was just wondering how the coarser edge helps with these super steels? I can already understand why do a micro bevel as it just strengthens the edge kind of like a lazy mans convex.

Also, would you strop the 600 grit micro bevel? Or just do those light 600 grit passes after stropping the edge?

I like the idea of keeping an aggressive cutting edge on my m390 for as long as possible.

By using two bevels, the back bevel and an edge (micro) bevel you get the advantage of better slicing because of a thinner edge produced with the back bevel and the very edge is stronger because it is at a higher angle. Also, the micro bevel makes touch ups a lot quicker and easier. You touch up at the higher angle of the micro bevel. By doing this you are removing far less steel making it faster and also will help the blade life by removing less steel over time. One more thing. If you have a nice mirror finish on the back bevel you won't scratch that if you touch up your edge at the higher angle.

I would suggest stropping the edge bevel no matter what grit stone you stop after. A strop will always put that little extra sharpness. Or, it does for me anyway. However, if the goal is to have a toothy edge stropping may not help you. You get a toothly edge by using a coarse stone on the edge last. If you strop it I believe the toothyness will be smoothed, lessening the effect of a toothy edge.

Jack

[Evil D]

So why would you polish out a bevel just to put a course micro bevel on it? Why not just stop at 600 in the first place and then do touch ups at a highter angle at the same grit? Seems to contradict the idea that polished edges last longer.