MARINE refuses plea deal - Gun possession in NYC

[ceya]

Great comments Deacon, I was going to respond to Ceya but couldn't have stated it any better.

Another example.
If I am driving on a highway and I don't SEE the speed limit posted, that doesn't give me the right
to go 100 and then say "Sorry, I didn't see the sign posted and the speeds vary so much around here
and are confusing." Then if the LEO gives me the option to have the ticket reduced, I am not going
to go over his head to try to prove a point.

I will take your example and raise you one.

That happen to me and my buds. The cop pulled us over and said he was driving over the limited.

He said the limited was 55 but I then showed him a sign that stated now 75 was the limited.

Glad I took the pic of that sign and having Microsoft GPS streets and Map also helps as it shows speed also.

The reason I took the pic to show someone else that you can go 75 mph and the same time they are telling people to slow down.

S/F,
CEYA!

[Monocrom]

No, I would work on getting the law changed. I am a gun totin', knife packin' old-fashioned farm boy that has a house full of guns
knives and things that I won't admit in writing. I carry weapons in my truck that would proabbly get me in trouble if I was stopped
and was was searched. However, the law IS the law, whether we like it or not. Go ahead and stand up in court and tell the judge
about how that's a poor-assed argument for getting arrested, this "law" thing.

Nope, that's not what I meant at all. Legally speaking, you cannot challenge a law unless it effects you personally. I mean directly challenge it. If, for example, there's a law against bars staying open past midnight in your county; and you own a hair saloon, you're not going to be able to challenge anything in open court through your attorney. Now if you happen to own O'Sullivan's Bar & Grill, and you've recently been arrested because you have one too many tickets for staying open until 2am, well; that's a different story.

Also, the law IS the law is still BS. Here's another example that applies from another angle. If you're a juror on the case involving this Marine, and you feel that the law is morally wrong; you don't have to ignore your morals and just go blindly by the concept of "the law is the law." Two words: Jury Nullification.

Yup, it is perfectly legal for you as a juror to stand up and tell the judge that you believe the law itself that a defendant is charged with violating is . . . Wrong. And due to your belief that the law should not exist in the first place, you refuse to vote him guilty of violating an unjust or immoral law. Judge isn't going to find you in contempt. He's not going to toss you in jail until you agree to blindly abide by the law. Nope! He's not going to do any of that. Why? Quite simply, the law itself recognizes a person's right to say that a particular law is immoral or unjust; and recognizes that a person cannot be forced to convict a defendant for having broken a law perceived to be immoral or unjust. Basically, you're not forced to simply accept and put up with a law that you yourself feel is immoral, unjust, corrupt, or just plain wrong. Even the law itself recognizes that the law is not always the law.

[BAL]

Interpretations of the law hav always existed, that's why we have lawyers, no one is arguing that. When I say the law is
the law, I am speaking about hard set laws, ie the speed limit is 55, you can't open carry a gun, guns are not permitted
in this court house, in this church, in this stadium.

I don't think that many of us talking here are that far off in our opinions. Sometimes it is hard to explain with only the written
word. If you knew me personally, you would know that I have lived the life of a rebel. I seem to always be on the OTHER
side of what is the norm. I have stood up for the anti-establishment countless times. I was the sole jurer arguing against
the other 11 once. I fought hard to try to stop a large utility company from building a coal fired power plant in my area. One
that didn't serve our region, but tranported the power across the country for their monitary gain. They won and are now
cutting across our farmland with their huge overhead powerlines. (off topic, sorry)

Normally I would be on the marines' side in this case and when I originally heard about it, I was. However, after reading
more, it was hard to stand up for him. If he wins and people start to think about how crazy the laws are, then this is great.
If I was in charge for a day, I would pass a law that conceal carry was legal everywhere.

Great conversation though, thanks guys.

[The Deacon]

Man is not a Marine, he's a former Marine, big difference.

What's the difference?

Simple. A Marine or any member of the US Armed Forces can legally carry a sidearm, even in NYC, if their orders require them to carry it. A former Marine is just another private citizen, subject to the same laws as you and me.

Many people have made mistakes with regards to NYS and NYC knife and gun laws.

That doesn't make them stupid. They would think NYS state laws would be law of the land within the state.

The rules within NYC is way different than any part of the state.

True, regarding rifles and shotguns, but as I mentioned earlier, what Mr. Jerome did would have been a felony anywhere in NYS for at least the past 50 years, and probably longer.

NYC was not very hard before on out of state legal carrying people.

When Mayor Gulliani came in with his stuff ( Quality of Life) things changed.

Totally untrue, at least where handguns are concerned. I can tell you for a fact NYC's "zero tolerance" policy toward anyone caught with a handgun, even with a valid NYS permit issued by another county, has been in effect since at least the Wagner era which began in '54. He was also one of the driving forces behind NYS's banning switchblades. Lindsay was equally anti-gun during his Republican and Democratic phases. Koch was, arguably, the most anti gun mayor ever. Could be wrong, but seem to recall the NYC law requiring registration of rifles and shotguns came about under him. Don't recall much about Abe Beame's administration, or Dave Dinkins' for that matter, except they both only lasted one term.

I will take your example and raise you one.

That happen to me and my buds. The cop pulled us over and said he was driving over the limited.

He said the limited was 55 but I then showed him a sign that stated now 75 was the limited.

Glad I took the pic of that sign and having Microsoft GPS streets and Map also helps as it shows speed also.

The reason I took the pic to show someone else that you can go 75 mph and the same time they are telling people to slow down.

S/F,
CEYA!

Then you were in the right, you were within the posted limit, and the cop was wrong. Happens sometimes. OTOH, Mr. Jerome was violating a NYS law that's been in effect with only relatively minor changes for 100 years and has been enforced both constantly and vigorously at the state level and with even greater zeal in NYC for at least the 50+ years I've been interested in guns.

Also, the law IS the law is still BS. Here's another example that applies from another angle. If you're a juror on the case involving this Marine, and you feel that the law is morally wrong; you don't have to ignore your morals and just go blindly by the concept of "the law is the law." Two words: Jury Nullification.

Not really BS, regardless of what the jury decides, the law existed and was violated. As for jury nullification, given the general anti-gun attitude in NYC, I'd give Mr Jerome better odds on winning Powerball. A hung jury, with one member steadfastly refusing to vote guilty would be more likely, but I wouldn't even count on that.

[ceya]

Q: Simple. A Marine or any member of the US Armed Forces can legally carry a sidearm, even in NYC, if their orders require them to carry it. A former Marine is just another private citizen, subject to the same laws as you and me.

R: As a Marine who has been on duty in NYC, there are not many orders for us to carry a side arm.

I'll respond to the rest later, hospital is calling me.

Where you in NYC during these times, Deacon?


S/F,
CEYA!

[Blerv]

This is a pretty simple case once you remove the pissing contest and distracting rhetoric. He broke the law. If his background changes anything about the penalty wouldn't that be more disturbing? Our legal system already is partially dosed with gasoline...let's not smoke too close to it.

Laws are changed by prudent and responsible action, not by carrying a gun and acting like a douche.

[The Deacon]

Q: Simple. A Marine or any member of the US Armed Forces can legally carry a sidearm, even in NYC, if their orders require them to carry it. A former Marine is just another private citizen, subject to the same laws as you and me.

R: As a Marine who has been on duty in NYC, there are not many orders for us to carry a side arm.

I'll respond to the rest later, hospital is calling me.

Where you in NYC during these times, Deacon?


S/F,
CEYA!

I'm sure you're right about that. Didn't mean to suggest there was a high probability of it happening, only that it would be an exception to New York's otherwise fairly universal prohibition.

As for the other, not in NYC, but very close to it. I grew up in Nassau County and lived there until '86 when I moved upstate. Lived there until last year when I moved down to SC. Got a pellet pistol when I was about 13, started digging out info on what I'd need to do to get a permit at around 15. No easy task back then, not like today were one can find out just about anything in minutes on the internet.

State law said in a roundabout way that you had to be 18 to get one, so I joined a gun club at 17 and applied for a permit when I turned 18. Had a Nassau County Police Captain look me straight in the eye and say "Son, I don't give a **** what the law says, you're not getting a permit here until you're 21". Pissed me off something fierce, but at least he was true to his word, it came in the mail on the day of my 21st birthday.

Back then there were only two kinds of permit in Nassau. Carry, which could be issued for either business or target/hunting, and allowed you to carry at all times, and premises, which only allowed you to have a gun in your home or place of business. Later on they put more restrictions on carry permits. Also owned a gun shop for a while and had a Dealers License and a Gunsmiths License.

Knew someone in another club whose Nassau carry permit got revoked because he was caught carrying in NYC and arrested. Read about plenty of other cases in the newspapers. Heck, back then NYPD would arrest an off-duty Nassau cop for carrying in the city. I risked getting my name in the paper, as did the other members of my team, every time we went to shoot in a match in New Jersey, Connecticut, or upstate. NYC did back down a bit a few years later, they relucantly agreed to allow folks with a valid NYS permit issued outside the city to transport their pistols, unloaded and cased, through the city on their way to and from a match or hunting trip.

[NYRich]

Interesting that jury nullification should be brought up. How about "grand jury nullification"? Actually, it wasn't nullification, but a group of people using their common sense.

This actually did happen while I was serving as a grand juror in Kings County (that's Brooklyn to those who aren't familiar with NYC) Must have been over 20 years ago, now that I think about it.

We were asked to indict a man for carrying an unlicensed hand gun. Sounds pretty open and shut, but the facts of the case gave us pause.

The accused was a 62 year old man who had worked the night shift at the Daily News for some 40+ years. Married to the same woman forever, raised and put three kids through college and never had so much as a speeding ticket. Granted, not one of these things should matter as he was indeed carrying an unlicensed hand gun.

Here he is around midnight, waiting for a city bus at the corner of "Mugem and Killum" streets when a black and white (NYPD really did drive black and whites at one time) pulls up and observes the accused toss something into the nearby bushes. They take a look and, sure enough, it's a loaded handgun. Naturally, he's cuffed, arrested and arraigned.

The ADA presents his case and, as is his right, the accused makes a statement explaining what happened, including his life history. Whoever his defense attorney was really knew his stuff and human nature as well. Testimony over, we deliberate as to whether or not to indict. As you might imagine in Brooklyn, the grand jury panel is about as racially diverse as they come. The accused happened to be African American.

We're all looking at each other and know damned well that we should vote a "true bill" (indict him). One woman finally has the guts to say what's on all of our minds. Does this man deserve mandatory jail time, given his past history as a family man and law-abiding citizen? We went back and forth for a while with some saying "the law is the law". To make this long story a little shorter.....the guy gets a pass.

I thought the ADA was going to have a stroke right in the grand jury room. We probably heard over 200 presentations that week and this was the only "no true bill" we handed down. I'm not saying that we would have let any Tom, Dick or Harry off the hook, as this was a serious charge and the law was absolutely broken. Yet, considering the facts, how would you have voted?

[BAL]

That's an interesting case NY Rich. All I can say is the old stand-by, You had to be there.
Obviously there were more things to consider, such as why did he say that he tossed the
gun (I guess so that he wouldn't get caught by the B&W.) Did he carry it every night
(I would have) and a few other things as well. I probably would have been in favor of
letting him go as well. Very interesting.

[Monocrom]

Not really BS, regardless of what the jury decides, the law existed and was violated. As for jury nullification, given the general anti-gun attitude in NYC, I'd give Mr Jerome better odds on winning Powerball. A hung jury, with one member steadfastly refusing to vote guilty would be more likely, but I wouldn't even count on that.

Not saying that the law doesn't exist. Nor that it wasn't violated. The BS part involves forcing someone, as a juror, to simply put their moral outlook aside and blindly apply a law that they feel is wrong onto an individual being charged with violating it. Jurors are not made up of robots programmed with a law library inside the micro-chips in their heads. They sometimes do use their common sense, along with a moral compass in deciding cases. Something beautifully illustrated above in NYRich's post.

[ceya]

For us Marines. As Chesty said " Once a Marine, ALWAYS a Marine".

Again we had NYPD, NYC Transit Police, NYC Housing Police , even among them we had issues .

NY Rich, NYPD also had the green and white color cars 60s to 70s.

You could go get a target permit at One Police Plaza , without going through what your going through now.

Last time I went there I was in 2001, uniform and had to get a whole lot of paper work and had to be in the state to do so.

Told the officer sorry going back overseas,not staying long.

In 93, You go fill out the paper work, money order for finger print and backround check, letter from range your going to and that was it.

I knew guys go over to Nassau to buy stuff. I had my share of Nassau being near Green Acres Mall when it was small next to the drive in movie , that got big over the 80s.

You could carry a knife folder and not be harrassed too much about having it.

Now the smallest one can get you in trouble ( my mini police was taken once, got it back).

S/F,
CEYA!

[NYRich]

That's an interesting case NY Rich. All I can say is the old stand-by, You had to be there.
Obviously there were more things to consider, such as why did he say that he tossed the
gun (I guess so that he wouldn't get caught by the B&W.) Did he carry it every night
(I would have) and a few other things as well. I probably would have been in favor of
letting him go as well. Very interesting.

Although I don't know for sure, my guess is that he did carry every night. Like you, I probably would have too under the circumstances. Apparently enough of us felt the same way and didn't send a good man to jail.

[OBJ Viking]

Wow! - With all the stringent gun and knife laws, NYC must be a crime free utopia.

[The Deacon]

Wow! - With all the stringent gun and knife laws, NYC must be a crime free utopia.

No, but much as I hate to defend it, NYC is safer than about two thirds of the other large US cities, and a whole lot safer than about one third of them. Detroit is the most violent US city, with over 3.5 times as much violent crime as NYC. St. Louis, MO comes in second, with a violent crime rate more than three times that of NYC. Baltimore, Kansas City, Oakland, and Buffalo all have violent crime rates almost three times higher than NYC's, and about a dozen other cities have rates around twice as high. Much as both the "Brady bunch" and the NRA would like us to believe differently, there is no discernible correlation between gun laws and crime. There are cities in "CCW friendly" states with lower crime rates, but plenty in "CCW friendly" states with considerably higher ones too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta ... crime_rate

Ceya, I will admit to a considerable bias against NYPD, based on personal experience. Some good cops there, I even knew one. But too many of the ones who've lived near me, both on the Island and in the lower Hudson Vallye, were corrupt, trigger happy, drunkards for me to have any real respect for the organization.

[OBJ Viking]

The guy plead out and they were surprisingly lenient considering NYC's laws and what I have read in this thread from people who live there..

http://www.shootingtimes.com/2012/03/21 ... sion-case/

[ceya]

They just dropped charges against a lady who came to NYC with a gun.

She said happy to be finally over.

Now we got to deal with Vance's new giving up DNA if convicted for any crime except small amount of weed.

S/F,
CEYA!