Noob question: 1095 vs SuperSteels edge holding

[Ol' KL]

Hi,

I'm a fairly ignorant about knives and steel. I have one VG-10 blade and really nothing more exotic. I plan to buy an Elmax Mule and see what it's like.

One thing I feel I've noticed is that although I can get the VG-10 blade sharp, I can't get it as sharp as the 1095. I realize there are many potential variables, but assume that the blades are identical and have been honed identically. Will the edge on VG-10 be as keen as that on the 1095? What about Elmax?

Great site by the way. I'm glad I stubbled onto Spyderco.

[razorsharp]

Simple carbon steels have a very fine structure, its hard to beat their sharpness with stainless steels.

[wsdavies]

I'm glad I stubbled onto Spyderco.

<<So you shaved with your Spydie Eh!

[Bill1170]

The simple steels like 1095 take a fine keen edge. Edgeholding, however, is generally used to describe how well that edge will last when subjected to pressure, abrasive wear, and/or lateral loading. Stick around, as there is much to know about these seemingly simple topics, and many very knowledgeable members here who are generous with their experience and insights.

[The Mastiff]

Most of the simple carbon steels don't have much in the way of carbides in the steel. It helps getting that very thin edge but it has less abrasive wear resistance than steels with carbides. Stainless steels, as well as alloy non stainless steels will have carbides to increase wear resistance. Most people will find the extra wear resistance and corrosion resistance in steels like VG10 and S30V worth the trade off. With the new technology sharpening systems and tools even monster wear resistant steels like S90V are very sharpenable.

Everyone has to find the tradeoff they like when it comes to steels and the 3 main attributes. Wear resistance, corrosion resistance, and toughness. Increasing the carbide fraction can up the wear resistance and corrosion resistance, but it will generally decrease the toughness. Plain carbon steels are very tough, take a great edge but aren't really wear resistant and are for sure not corrosion resistant. Some alloys, like Cruware for instance, are designed for wear resistance and toughness, but generally aren't going to resist corrosion really well. It does do it a bit better than the simple carbon steels like 1095, 1085/84/80, 70, etc.

There really aren't bad steels as such. Just ones that fit your individual needs and likes better than others. There are enough on the market so that anyone can find one just right for them. Same with knife designs, sizes, blade thicknesses, etc.

VG 10 and Elmax are both excellent steels that get good marks in all the different attributes. Very well balanced steels.

[phillipsted]

There really aren't bad steels as such. Just ones that fit your individual needs and likes better than others. There are enough on the market so that anyone can find one just right for them. Same with knife designs, sizes, blade thicknesses, etc.

Very well summarized, Mastiff!
TedP

[cckw]

Mastiff did an excellent explanation, but in case you aren't sure on the difference between toughness and edge holding. toughness think chopping, edge holding think cutting meat.

[dj moonbat]

There really aren't bad steels as such. Just ones that fit your individual needs and likes better than others. There are enough on the market so that anyone can find one just right for them. Same with knife designs, sizes, blade thicknesses, etc.

If one adds the caveat that a buyer might just have an interest in/need for a low price, the above is probably true. But there are certainly steels that are inferior to, say, VG-10 in every aspect of performance. I own(ed) a couple knives made of such steels, and since I no longer have to consider paying for them, I can say that they are made of bad steel. (I can also say that my regret over buying a knife made of bad steel is lessened by the fact that I didn't pay very much.)

The fact that there's a buyer out there for everything doesn't mean everything is good. People bought a lot of Ford Pintos (cheap!), and those things exploded...

[dbcad]

I enjoy the Mastiff's reply on this question.

From bottom to top:

Modern VG-10 design, terrific very useful knife that takes a very sharp edge and does a lot well :D

Early 1900's knife found at hardware stores. Grind modified due to blade damage from rust. Sheffield steel, keeps an edge pretty well and is still used for lighter tasks. Takes a wicked edge very easily :D

A modern interpretation of materials used in pre-ancient knives. Will still work in a pinch and can get surpisingly sharp edges. Completely different sharpening technique

Looking at them side by side is informative. No good or bad, just different ages and different :)

[dbcad]

I forgot to say welcome to Ol' KL. You've found a good place :)

[Evil D]

To me the main thing to consider here is ease of sharpening vs. edge retention and which is most important to you. The use of some of those simple carbon steels in survival knives is because you can sharpen them on a creek rock. You won't get very good results sharpening S90V on a rock...or suffice to say not AS good results, and nowhere near as easily. The application dictates which is more important. If you're like me and you have days where you can use an edge down to where it barely cuts at all, then long term edge retention is a big deal and it's worth having to deal with the extra investment in sharpening time. On the other hand if you're an outdoors kind of person and you hike and camp a lot, and you consider the possibility that you may one day need to improvise and sharpen your knife on a rock, then a carbon steel may be for you.

In simpler terms, i would EDC S90V but i'd probably opt for 1095 for my camping gear even if i had a sharpening stone with me in the camping gear. If i were hunting/cleaning game, i'd probably opt for the steel that will hold an edge the longest. If i'm a person who's a novice at sharpening, i'd probably look for something middle ground that holds an edge a decently long time but is forgiving when sharpening...and my first choice for that would likely be VG10. Some will make the argument that because you use your knife a lot and because you can wear the edge down to nothing in a single day is the very reason you should stick with easy to sharpen steels because you'll be spending more time sharpening them. That's a fine way to think about it if you don't also enjoy the sharpening process. Personally i love sharpening almost as much as i enjoy using so i have no problems putting in a little more effort to sharpen a steel that blows me away after a long day of use when i find that it's still plenty sharp.

[Ol' KL]

Thanks for the viewpoints.

I'm happy to move beyond 1095, I just find it amazing that something seemingly so simple obtains such a keen edge.

I bought the VG-10 blade looking for longer edge holding (Not for a keen edge as pointed out above). I'm primarily thinking about hunting. The point I would be satisfied is if I can skin an elk in the field, by myself and still find the blade adequately sharp without touching up in the process. I skinned an elk last fall with the VG-10. It finished the job, but it was below what I consider sharp.

I'm happy enough with the VG-10. I spent a fair amount of time sharpening it (To what I think is better than factory sharp). It got me interested in trying a powder steel.

It is very interesting to me that with all the technology invested in stainless steels that they would not reach the sharpenablility (Is that a word?) of carbon steel.

I bought an Elmax, I also bought a Cruwear (I realize this is a different beast). I'll see what it will do/I can do with it. I plan to try some other steels in the next year or so.

I admit I have a fascination with keen edges. I'm not sure that I have all my 1095 blade will give me. I really need to work on my sharpening skill. I imagine a jig or reps are the only way to improve that. I would like to do it free hand. I'm not much of a craftsman, but if I'm going to work on something it might as well be honing. It's easy to practice.

[Spyderjo]

[quote="dj moonbat"] People bought a lot of Ford Pintos (cheap!), and those things exploded

I owned a 1971 Ford Pinto. Biggest hunk of junk ever made. The car didn't explode, but Detroit did, for making and selling such garbage. Sorry for being off topic but I couldn't resist responding to your comment.

[dbcad]

It all depends on an individual's needs. The carbon steels do very well, are easy to sharpen, take a great edge more easily, and are terrific to use. The non alloyed variants like 1095 need more care (not sure what's in the old knife), but if the edge and ease of attaining that edge are important, use and enjoy :)

Different materials have different properties. Use them all if you have them and take advantage of their strengths. It doesn't make sense to me to focus on their relative weakness in some areas. I really like the edge the old knife takes and how easily it takes it.

It all depends on what you want to use it for :)

[Ankerson]

To me the main thing to consider here is ease of sharpening vs. edge retention and which is most important to you. The use of some of those simple carbon steels in survival knives is because you can sharpen them on a creek rock. You won't get very good results sharpening S90V on a rock...or suffice to say not AS good results, and nowhere near as easily. The application dictates which is more important. If you're like me and you have days where you can use an edge down to where it barely cuts at all, then long term edge retention is a big deal and it's worth having to deal with the extra investment in sharpening time. On the other hand if you're an outdoors kind of person and you hike and camp a lot, and you consider the possibility that you may one day need to improvise and sharpen your knife on a rock, then a carbon steel may be for you.

In simpler terms, i would EDC S90V but i'd probably opt for 1095 for my camping gear even if i had a sharpening stone with me in the camping gear. If i were hunting/cleaning game, i'd probably opt for the steel that will hold an edge the longest. If i'm a person who's a novice at sharpening, i'd probably look for something middle ground that holds an edge a decently long time but is forgiving when sharpening...and my first choice for that would likely be VG10. Some will make the argument that because you use your knife a lot and because you can wear the edge down to nothing in a single day is the very reason you should stick with easy to sharpen steels because you'll be spending more time sharpening them. That's a fine way to think about it if you don't also enjoy the sharpening process. Personally i love sharpening almost as much as i enjoy using so i have no problems putting in a little more effort to sharpen a steel that blows me away after a long day of use when i find that it's still plenty sharp.

I always thought that sharpening on a rock was kind of funny really.

While I completely understand that harmony of doing so the real likelihood of that really needing to happen is remote.

IF one is the outdoor type etc that people would likely have something on hand to sharpen their knife if needed. It really doesn't take all that much effort to touch up even something like S90V in the field. Really just a few strokes on a ceramic rod or a loaded strop will do the job. So my point is that if they are that type of person they would likely have something on hand unless they are completely unprepared and that doesn't seem likely.

[Blerv]

I'm with you Ankerson. I'll sharpen my knives on rocks when society comes to a halt and lunch includes grilled rat.

[Ankerson]

I'm with you Ankerson. I'll sharpen my knives on rocks when society comes to a halt and lunch includes grilled rat.

If things get to that point most of us won't be around anyway and for those who are left finding sharpening equipment won't be a problem.

[Evil D]

I think the point is that when SHTF you're not always prepared. Guys who are out on a casual hike in the woods and end up lost don't always think to bring a sharpening tool with them. We're obviously the exception to the rule. But, at the same time i still don't think i'd want S90V at a camp site even if i had a ceramic rod with me.

[Ankerson]

I think the point is that when SHTF you're not always prepared. Guys who are out on a casual hike in the woods and end up lost don't always think to bring a sharpening tool with them. We're obviously the exception to the rule. But, at the same time i still don't think i'd want S90V at a camp site even if i had a ceramic rod with me.

I find the whole SHTF thing really amusing to begin with for a few reasons.

1. What makes people think they will be in the percentage that is left living, that is the 10% - 20% that would be left over and that's speaking on the positive side, that's really funny if you think about it realistically?
2. Nobody knows what SHTF will be, Nuclear, Biological, Chemical etc or a Combination of.
3. Location will have a lot to do with their survival if something happens, NOT how prepared they think they are and believe me they really aren't if something really happened.... They are fooling themselves at best because all that junk they bought won't do them any good if something really happens.
4. Civilians that live in Major cities will be the 1st to go, then the Smaller Cities and on down speaking realistically, it won't be a ground war other than the mop up after. Yes they would have to target the Civilian population and wipe them out if they wanted to occupy after. Those who think that they would target just military targets are living in fantasyland.

In the end there will be survivors, but they will be the lucky ones who just happened to be in the right place at the right time when it goes down. It won't matter how prepared they think they are, how much food and supplies they have or much else, it will be nothing more than luck. Those Survivors will be rounded up or killed too in the end depending on what plans they have for them in the end, we aren't talking about the movies here or some fantasy that those types have.

This is coming from someone who was in the Military in the Cold War days and was an N.B.C. weapons specialist so I know something about it.

[Fat Goat Forge]

I find the whole SHTF thing really amusing to begin with for a few reasons.

1. What makes people think they will be in the percentage that is left living, that is the 10% - 20% that would be left over and that's speaking on the positive side, that's really funny if you think about it realistically?
2. Nobody knows what SHTF will be, Nuclear, Biological, Chemical etc or a Combination of.
3. Location will have a lot to do with their survival if something happens, NOT how prepared they think they are and believe me they really aren't if something really happened.... They are fooling themselves at best because all that junk they bought won't do them any good if something really happens.
4. Civilians that live in Major cities will be the 1st to go, then the Smaller Cities and on down speaking realistically, it won't be a ground war other than the mop up after. Yes they would have to target the Civilian population and wipe them out if they wanted to occupy after. Those who think that they would target just military targets are living in fantasyland.

In the end there will be survivors, but they will be the lucky ones who just happened to be in the right place at the right time when it goes down. It won't matter how prepared they think they are, how much food and supplies they have or much else, it will be nothing more than luck. Those Survivors will be rounded up or killed too in the end depending on what plans they have for them in the end, we aren't talking about the movies here or some fantasy that those types have.

This is coming from someone who was in the Military in the Cold War days and was an N.B.C. weapons specialist so I know something about it.

As a rural resident who owns livestock and farmland I find it funny that urban dwellers have their bug out bags filled with stuff so they can head for the hills when SHTF. Well dont come here we plan to defend our town if SHTF against the incoming hoards of city dwelling yuppies heading our way with their BOB's full of weapons. Its not likes there is much wilderness near the cities so I figure they are coming to live off my land.

Oh and as a former Infantry Officer I know how to defend my land.