OT: Incase you forgot

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java
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OT: Incase you forgot

Postby java » Wed Mar 26, 2003 1:00 am

We always had mission statements in the military. This one needs no explanation, but in case the print is too small on the photo:



WHY WE ARE HERE



OCT 1983 MARINE BARRACKS BEIRUT LEBANON 243

DEC 1988 PAN AM FLIGHT 103, LOCKERBIE SCOTLAND 244

FEB 1993 WORLD TRADE CENTER, NYC, NY 6

JUN 1996 KHOBAR TOWERS, DAHRAIN, S.A. 19

AUG 1998 US EMBASSIES, KENYA/TANZANIA 224

OCT 2000 USS COLE, ADEN, YEMEN 17

SEP 11, 2001 WORLD TRADE CENTER, NYC, NY 2000+

PENTAGON, WASHINGTON DC

UNITED AIRLINES FLIGHT 93







God bless all who struggle in the name of freedom. Success in their missions and may they return safely to their friends and loved ones.





<font color="BLUE">"A hole-less knife is soul-less knife is a whole less knife" - <i>Javanese proverb"</i><font>
<a href="/forums/attachmentarchive/7908-7-whywearehere2jpg.jpg" target="_new">View Attachment...</a>

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ken
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Postby ken » Wed Mar 26, 2003 10:44 pm

THANKS-

AND VERY WELL PUT!

ken

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Postby jaxon » Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:35 pm

Pray for them, success and safe return, all of our guys and gals. And check this out.

http://www.deskflag.com/

Jaxon

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Postby Alan2112 » Thu Mar 27, 2003 4:21 am

Thnaks Java! If any of you have Yahoo Launch, watch the video by 3 Doors down, "Remember Me When I,m Gone". If you don't like modern rock, turn down the volume. The first time I watched this video, it chocked me up, the second time, I had to look around, and make sure no one saw the tears in my eyes! I miss my buddies, prayers are with all our service people!! RKBA!

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Postby voxnaes » Thu Mar 27, 2003 4:37 am

All good to you and your´s.... To all of you and your´s!!
Vox.

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Postby connor » Thu Mar 27, 2003 10:22 am

I really hoped statements like those wouldn't show up here, too .. but now I want to add a few off-topic "in case you forgot" statements as well:

1. Any war that is not started out of self-defence or is approved by the United Nations is illegal - in fact it's an offense against the law of nations. Yes, that makes the top politicians of the american government war-criminals, and if there's any justice on this planet they will eventually end up in The Hague for this.

2. The despicable terror attacks of 9/11 do _not_ qualify as a reason of self-defense, because the american government failed to provide any clear evidence that the people of Iraq had anything to do with it. In fact there is more evidence that e.g. Saudi Arabia, one of the US allies has ways more to do with Al Quaida then the Iraq has.

3. After this war is over, thousands, if not ten-thousands of children, women and men in Iraq will be dead, the vast majority of them being as innocently as the people which died in the twin towers. THIS makes this war an outrageous crime against humanity, and I'm not even talking about the real reasons for this conflict.

Peace,

Connor

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Postby Blades » Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:24 am

Connor,
Welcome to the Spydie forums!!! <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Thank you for your comments. I think you have some facts confused, but that's okay, it happens. Your from Germany?? Hmmm....Why is it that today, you are able to post on an open forum, on the internet(world wide web), and speak your mind?? Just wondering. Anyways, what type of Spyderco's are you allowed to carry in your country??



Blades

connor
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Postby connor » Thu Mar 27, 2003 12:36 pm

@Blades
Hello! What has anything that happened in Nazi-Germany over 50 years ago to do with the Iraq war? BTW, I am quite thankful Hitler is gone and that the american soldiers helped in getting rid of him. But that has -again- nothing to do with the war in Iraq. You really think Bush wants free elections in Iraq after the war is over? Consider this: If you really allow free elections in this country, they will most probably vote for the fundamentalistic islamic parties.

Anyway, knife laws in Germany are pretty much ok. No Spydercos I know of are banned. What IS banned are push daggers and some kind of automatic knives and daggers.

-Connor

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java
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Postby java » Thu Mar 27, 2003 12:54 pm

Connor,

Welcome and welcome for your off target comments. The point of the picture is not this or any war but why our armed forces are on duty 24/7. I mentioned mission statements without justifying conflict and wished peace and safe return for those who struggle for freedom.

We can sort the blame and legalities about the current conflict out after <b>all</b> the facts are ferreted out. Peace at any price however is not a lasting peace - if enough freedom loving Germans in the 1930s had realized this and not sat quietly by, maybe the Holocast innocents and the millions of young lives the world over that were destroyed wouldn't have happened. Again, not a justification, but Mr Hussein has been responsible for the deaths of more Muslim innocents than all the wars in the Middle East in this century. Kindly read up on your history and current events and then take your arguments to BFC's Political Forum and let us know how you fair there.

Meanwhile - Got Crickets???

Peace Through Superior Firepower and <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>forged S30V

<font color="BLUE">"A hole-less knife is soul-less knife is a whole less knife" - Javanese proverb" </font>

Edited by - java on 3/27/2003 12:03:07 PM

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Postby Alan2112 » Fri Mar 28, 2003 12:53 am

Welcome aboard, Connor! I'm not going to debate the war with you; I don't have the time for it! My view of the UN is, foxtrot the UN, we need to get out of the UN, and vice versa!! I look at the UN as our enemy, we the people of the U.S.A.!

Edited by - Alan2112 on 3/27/2003 11:55:33 PM

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Postby sven » Fri Mar 28, 2003 2:05 am

connor, welcome to the forum. hussein is like having a snake in your backyard. he's gonna bite you eventually. you kill him. you don't ignore him, and you don't throw him in the neighbor's yard, cause sooner or later he's gonna come after you. oh, and you don't just wait for him to bite you before you decide to act against him. this man has used nerve gas on HIS OWN PEOPLE!!! i'm sorry, but i feel that this war is justified. waiting so that we can justify it through self defence is just too costly. what if he sets off nerve gas or worse a nuke in one or more of our cities? i don't want to think about the possibility that i or those that i care about could die at the hands of a madman. sir, i'm afraid i will be foreced to respectfully disagree with you. may your pockets be deep and your spyders be many.

grace and peace
sven

steel is unforgiving... sharp steel even more so

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Postby AllenETreat » Fri Mar 28, 2003 1:46 pm

"War is Hell."

-William Tecumseh Sherman

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Al
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Postby Al » Fri Mar 28, 2003 2:51 pm

Helloerr Herr Connor, what Spydies do ye own?.

Welcommen to the Spydie forum btw, Spydies know no political boundaries, nationality or race and dae ye ken, it's been said that even Alien's collect 'em, Och Aye!...<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>

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Postby connor » Fri Mar 28, 2003 3:02 pm

@java
> We can sort the blame and legalities about the current conflict out after all the facts are ferreted out.

I would just wish a WAR could only be started AFTER all "the blame and legalities ... are ferreted out". My problem with *any* acts of terrorism or wars is that its always the innocent who have to suffer because of it.

@Alan2112
Please be serious - the UN isn't your enemy and it never was. Just because the majority of the UN members have a different view on a specific crisis, there is no reason for you or your governemt to declare the UN - or the rest of the world - to be your *enemy*. I really doubt the majority of the american people see it that way, too.

@sven
Saddam is a mass-murderer and the day this guy vanishes is probably not a bad day for the world. But think about all the civilian casualties .. just today a (presumeably) errant bomb killed 50 innocent on a market-place in Baghdad. Those were people just like you and me and just like the ones who died in the WTC.

You said: "this man has used nerve gas on HIS OWN PEOPLE!!!" This is true .. the bastard gassed about 5000 kurds, innocent children, women and men .. but .. the american government used nerve gas on their own people, too. They even used nuclear weapons on their own people, even on their own soldiers back in the 60s when they started experimenting with the remote damages of exposure to chemical and nuclear weapons. That's not my imagination, those are proven facts: When they tested those weapons, they knew ships with american soldiers were well within the blast/fallout radius. Of course the simple soldier didn't know this. I know this isn't exactly the same as directly gassing a town full of people, but it's nothing to be proud of as well and with a history like that you may want to reconsider if the hell of war is really the only solution to a problem.

There may be times when brutal force is the only option (I think the war against Hitler is an example for that), but I and many others don't feel this is true for this conflict.

Peace,

Connor

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Postby connor » Fri Mar 28, 2003 3:23 pm

Hello Al and greetings to Scotland!

I have been in Edinburgh ~12 years ago, great town and a great country! I walked the west highland way from Milngavie to Fort William .. Scotland really rocks. :-))

To answer your question which Spydies I own: I have a engraved Dragonfly II "Glasshartt special" and an Endura FRN/SE which I swapped against a Fällkniven S1. Now I am desperately waiting that Linda "Glasshartt" is getting the Military in S30V and then I will immediately order one of those (plain-edge), along with a pair of diamond triangles for my 204D sharpmaker. :-))

-Connor

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Postby Al » Fri Mar 28, 2003 3:40 pm

The West Highland Way! ~ So ye'll be on first name terms with the infamous 'West Highland Midgie' - Yer a tuff laddie!.

Got the Glasshartt Dragonfly and wouldnae mind the Diamond triangles too, she's got them going for great price.

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Postby delicrazy » Sat Mar 29, 2003 11:20 pm

whats your modivation connor? you go on to an american forum and try to destroy our moral. NEWS FLASH: YOU ARENT GOING TO WIN and if your still too **** lazy to get your facts strait put your face in a blender and eliminate your stupid from the gene pool
btw i carry a chinook and a delica :D

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Postby connor » Sun Mar 30, 2003 7:42 am

@delicrazy

Now that was an impressive list of arguments you had there.

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Postby delicrazy » Sun Mar 30, 2003 11:37 am

thanx bro i do what i can :-D
btw welcome to the forum

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java
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Postby java » Sun Mar 30, 2003 8:00 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:<hr height=1 noshade>@delicrazy

Now that was an impressive list of arguments you had there. <hr height=1 noshade></BLOCKQUOTE></font><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2>

Connor,

I noticed that 5 of your 8 posts have been confined to this thread. Makes me wonder who wants to argue.....

If you revisit the initial post, the only inference to war was invoked by yourself when you hijacked the thread to make your personal stand on the “current war”. My statement was meant as support for all who struggle in the name of freedom. Would you have felt better if it was on a US or British hospital ship? The sentiment is the same –They have a job to do and that’s why they are “there”. There does not refer to any war, any battlefield, any police action, or any relief effort. I like to think our Armed forces exist to protect us from the evil that men do.

Try reading up on the history of Iraq and its current regime. It strikes closer to home than you may realize. As far as legitimizing the current war against international law – what exactly did resolutions 678, 687, 949, and 688 spell out. Then tell me what serious consequences mean in Resolution 1441. What is your view of a fair amount of time to come clean. Is the presence of the proscribed Al-samoud missiles and their manufacturing castings evidence of good faith on the part of the Iraqi government? Would Hans Blix and company have been as “effective” as Butler’s UNSCOM who believed they were successful at ferreting out the WMD only to have Saddam’s son-in-law defect and inform us otherwise.

As to innocents and the horrors of war perhaps a little background is needed here. Having experienced the fury and devastation of armed conflict first hand and traveled extensively in the 3rd world under oppressive regimes, I’m sorry to say but there is still evil in the hearts of men. Having worked with humanitarian relief efforts in each country I was assigned, I can say that the oppressed and innocent often have no voice to tell the horrors that are committed on a daily basis by their governments. So what do we do for them, Connor?

The world sat by in the 1930s while Germany violated the Treaty of Versailles and built its war machine. The world sat by during the blitzkrieg attacks on Poland and cared little of the pogroms that laid the lives of the innocent to waste. The world sat by while Japan violated international treaties and then invaded China and unleashed horrors like Camp 731 on a defenseless civilian populace. At best Saddam is Hitler’s “Mini-Me” and due to our collective containment actions, his stated dream of leading a pan-Arabic nation will not become reality. At worst he is the torturer, oppressor and instrument of death for nearly 1.5 million Middle Eastern people. How many of those are innocent? Better yet how many is enough?

Notice in each case treaties were violated. How do these differ from the successive resolutions levied by that august body of international politic, the UN, on Iraq. If people had stood up to Hitler, Mussolini, and the Japanese regimes at an early stage, how many innocent lives would have been saved. What constitutes right when treaties are violated and who is going to enforce the letter of international law? The UN passed no less than 12 resolutions from 1991 to try and force Iraq’s compliance with disarmament and reasonable standards of international behavior. These UN resolutions were violated long before the US and its current allies acted.

A coalition of more of the willing would have been nice and maybe given Saddam more reason to stop and think. (Having read extensively on the history of Iraq and Saddam though I doubt it.) But the division among the Security Council members emboldened Mr. Hussein and his ambassadors used every cover and every political mechanization to buy time believing we would not act without UN approval. The reluctance of France was based, IMO, more on their tentative lucrative oil contracts estimated at nearly $52 billion; the memory of the 1970s deals that accounted for 40% of their arms sales; and a desire to reduce the role of the US in international politics. France’s hands are dirty and they are guilty in violating the sanctions imposed by the UN to make Saddam disarm. Germany, Russia, and a host of neighboring Arab nations are no less clean. Treaties and resolutions are worthless if we don’t abide by them and provide the means to enforce them. The UK, Australia, the US, and 40+ other countries are willing to take on that task while the world continues to watch.

As to your first first point, the UN is not the body that decides whether a war is legal or just. They may sanction a war but the justification to use war and its conduct falls under the Geneva Conventions. The last amendment did not consider the world as it is today and we may need to revisit them in the future. The Conventions also provide for war crimes so you may make you case for either side on this point. Justification can be argued using UN Resolution 678 which authorized force in support of UN Resolution 660 and “successive resolutions to bring peace and security to the region”. I also believe the “serious consequences” referred to in Resolution 1441 are pretty straight forward – unless the rest of the world means a series of unending inspections are “serious”.


On point two, if you listen to the imbedded reporters and read up on Saddam, you will find that not only are Al-Queda operatives working with the Iraqi instruments of state but Saddam has a history of collusion with terrorist organizations when it suits his interests. Case in point is the Abu-Nidal organization which Saddam supported in an effort to gain control over anti-Israeli terrorist organization. Iraq’s (read Saddam’s) orchestration of the assasination of Shlomo Argov, the Israeli ambassador to Great Britain, is well documented. Whether Saddam worked with Al-Queda on 9-11 is open to speculation. His troop movements immediately prior to 9-11 lead some analysts to conclude he had advance knowledge. Some could say this makes him guilty. Let’s wait to see what is uncovered.

On point three, yes thousands of men, women, and children will be dead and as one who protested Vietnam and then faced the horrors of war, I will grieve for them. But I ask you, how many has Saddam already murdered and how many more would die if he is allowed to continue in power or foster his dream of Pan-Arabic domination. How many less would be dead if a united UN had lived up to its obligations and not tolerated 12 years of deceit, lies, and misinformation from a government that is brutal in its suppression of its own people and bent on acquiring nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons of destruction – and for what reason?

My statement stands as bless all who struggle in the name of freedom. May those who selflessly stand on the wall and protect us from the evil that exists in the world be safe. This is a fairly self policing forum and most of us tolerate a little OT here. I was not judging the right or wrong of the current conflict until you posted. If you wish to debate further send me some e-mails or go to Blade Forum’s Political forum.

My best to you in trying to understand all sides of this. I like your world where the reasons for war are ferreted out first before hostilities. My world would have no wars. Pity I can’t live there.

Best to ya......<img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>

<i>“The blood-dimmed tide is loosed and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned
The best all lack conviction, while the worst;
Are full of passionate intensity.”</i> – W B Yeats


BTOT (Back to Off-Topic)


Edited by - java on 3/30/2003 7:01:59 PM


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