Dear Joe:
Thank you for your input. I certainly appreciate where you're coming from and support your idea of carrying the largest practical blade legally allowed in your area. My first commercial design, the MOD Tempest, has a 3.5-inch blade because that happens to be the Colorado limit. If I could have gone longer, I probably would have.
However, to clarify the other side of the discussion, I'd like to point out two things:
1) To make any design viable from a business perspective, you need to try to hit as broad a market as possible. Since I designed the Yojimbo as a knife to be carried rather than collected, I wanted to make it legal in as many jurisdictions as possible. With few exceptions, 3 inches does that nicely.
2) Longer blades also place more stress on the lock mechanism than shorter ones because they provide a longer lever. Just through repeated high-speed openings alone (albeit quite a few) I have worn out lockback knives with 4-inch-plus blades because of the peening effect of that long blade on the locking bar face. Simply put, It's easier to achieve MBC's demanding lock standards with smaller blades than longer ones. And the worst thing in the world is a folding knife that lives up to its name at the wrong time.
With all that said, I wouldn't be opposed to a longer blade option on a Yojimbo -- if there was enough of a market to justify the extra production expense. Anyone else have an opinion they'd like to share on that?
Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.
Stay safe,
mike j
Spyderco Yojimbo/Folding Ronin Prototype Pics
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Michael Janich
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Joe Talmadge
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Sal and Michael,
I don't disagree with anything you both said, and I definitely won't fault the design philosophy behind these knives, they are very sound. I love the design of both the fixed blade and folder, and don't want to take us too off-topic from that. But, here's hoping for a bigger version of the folder someday <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Joe
I don't disagree with anything you both said, and I definitely won't fault the design philosophy behind these knives, they are very sound. I love the design of both the fixed blade and folder, and don't want to take us too off-topic from that. But, here's hoping for a bigger version of the folder someday <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Joe
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bracial_stabber
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I understand the KISS principle, but you all need to stop worshipping anything that spydco makes and admit this is a **** of an ugly knife. I would choose any emerson folder or even an endura over this for an everyday carry knife. Honestly you guys, this model is nothing but a boxcutter on steroids. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but a good quality boxcutter will run you jack******at sears, how much is this knife going to cost when it hits market? I would have liked to have seen something in an s-curve pattern myself. I carry an endura now, but there's always a boxcutter styled razor in my wallet...
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bracial_stabber
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In fact, i would much rather carry a tanto-style blade, folding or fixed, than this box-cutter-on-the-juice. I can tell that all you jackasses who are raving about this knife are nothing but arm chair warriors and none of you know that the best knife to bring to a knife fight is a gun anyway. HK USP baby.
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bracial_stabber
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Hey BS,
Thanks for stopping here in the MBC forum and spreading your initials. We haven’t had a troll here since the juvenile postings of Hannibal. I know Mike Janich and the Ronin, it may only be a “box cutter on steroids”, but the cutting power and the overall design are excellent.
If the Ronin is not for you, great. There are plenty of S-curves or other knives out there for you. You call us “arm chair warriors” while let us see a verifiable list of your real world credentials. Next time you post here, can you try to have something useful to say?
Imagination without knowledge gives one no ability to adapt.
Gavin D.
Edited by - Mr.Skin on 2/9/2003 6:45:55 AM
Thanks for stopping here in the MBC forum and spreading your initials. We haven’t had a troll here since the juvenile postings of Hannibal. I know Mike Janich and the Ronin, it may only be a “box cutter on steroids”, but the cutting power and the overall design are excellent.
If the Ronin is not for you, great. There are plenty of S-curves or other knives out there for you. You call us “arm chair warriors” while let us see a verifiable list of your real world credentials. Next time you post here, can you try to have something useful to say?
Imagination without knowledge gives one no ability to adapt.
Gavin D.
Edited by - Mr.Skin on 2/9/2003 6:45:55 AM
One thing I learned when joining a forum is to browse for a while, learn, and respect the opinions of the more established members. I have used wharnecliffe-type knives for many years, and worked for a big-city police department for 19 years. There is NOTHING wrong with a "boxcutter on steriods" as a weapon, IMHO. No, I have never used a knife as a weapon, because I always seemed to be too busy using a firearm at the time, but I have seen many people who have been cut and stabbed. Michael Janich is not alone in believing in the concept of a straight-edged fighting knife. Try www.szaboinc.com sometime. As for the Ronin and Yojimbo, I look forward to handling them, and if either or both fit my hands, I will purchase them, knowing the concept works just fine, in the REAL world.
Oh, and on the subject of weaklings, the points on the Ronin and Yojimbo are MUCH stronger than on your precious Endura. That is why I like this type of point---strength. If Spyderco will put a Yojimbo blade into the Gunting handle, and add the kinetic-opening ramp, I just might camp, in the rain, at the factory's doorstep, in anticipation. BTW, the Gunting is my EDC.
Hello Mr. B_S. Welcome to the Spyderco MBC forum. Certainly one of the more sensible, knowledgable and civil MBC groups around.
Surely one who has read Deming ("Imagination is stronger than Knowledge"<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> would not close his/her mind to the many solutions that humans can create, to any question.
"All good, just different"
We appreciate your point of view, as the points of view of all visiting here.
I would not want to be on the wrong end of any sharp Spyderco, regardless of the shape.
It is a great time for knife lovers, in that mny of the factories will take the time and money to invest in the multitude of designs currently available. Regardless of how different or weird they may appear. Spyderco Clipits looked really weird in 1981.
sal
Surely one who has read Deming ("Imagination is stronger than Knowledge"<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> would not close his/her mind to the many solutions that humans can create, to any question.
"All good, just different"
We appreciate your point of view, as the points of view of all visiting here.
I would not want to be on the wrong end of any sharp Spyderco, regardless of the shape.
It is a great time for knife lovers, in that mny of the factories will take the time and money to invest in the multitude of designs currently available. Regardless of how different or weird they may appear. Spyderco Clipits looked really weird in 1981.
sal
I hardly ever post here but I think the world of Sal and I'm a Spyderco fan, having carried them in some form or fashion for fifteen years.
brachial_stabber I think you just came over to this forum to start an arguement. If you don't like the knife why bother posting? It's pretty easy to sling sh*t from the safety of a key-board. So what differentiates you? Are you on the job? L.E., Military. Are you a thug? What profound reference points do you have that no one else does, wannabe?
Edited by - SouthNarc on 2/9/2003 5:09:24 PM
brachial_stabber I think you just came over to this forum to start an arguement. If you don't like the knife why bother posting? It's pretty easy to sling sh*t from the safety of a key-board. So what differentiates you? Are you on the job? L.E., Military. Are you a thug? What profound reference points do you have that no one else does, wannabe?
Edited by - SouthNarc on 2/9/2003 5:09:24 PM
Everyone has designs they like and designs they don't... things they like and things they do not - that's life in all its glory. Hey brachial_stab: remember where you are. This is a SPYDERCO Forum. It shouldn't be much of a surprise that people here are going to like this knife. Sal and everyone at Spyderco create some brillian work and people here appreciate that. It's also important to note that the man who designed it knows from where he speaks and has always laid his credentials on line. He has created an excellent piece of hardware here. If you don't like it, fine. Running around calling people names and picking fights makes you look like a child.
Open your own mind. Have some respect. I almost never reply to these things. In fact I almost never post - no time because I'm doing my job - but this kind of childish insult just gets to me and I had to put something out in response before you are inevitably banned...Grow up.
Open your own mind. Have some respect. I almost never reply to these things. In fact I almost never post - no time because I'm doing my job - but this kind of childish insult just gets to me and I had to put something out in response before you are inevitably banned...Grow up.
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bracial_stabber
- Member
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- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Hey Sal,
I can tell you're one of the good ones and you don't let your feathers get ruffled easily. I respect that. You have my personal apologies for my previous posts. They most definitely were not aimed at any person like you and I apologize profusely for my ignorance. Maybe I judged this forum too abrasively and I will change my user name to something more intelligent and try and make some positive contributions to some of your discussions. Again, you (albeit you alone) have my most sincere apologies.
"Observe your enemys, for they first find out your faults."
-Antisthenes...Athenian Philosopher c.440 B.C.
I can tell you're one of the good ones and you don't let your feathers get ruffled easily. I respect that. You have my personal apologies for my previous posts. They most definitely were not aimed at any person like you and I apologize profusely for my ignorance. Maybe I judged this forum too abrasively and I will change my user name to something more intelligent and try and make some positive contributions to some of your discussions. Again, you (albeit you alone) have my most sincere apologies.
"Observe your enemys, for they first find out your faults."
-Antisthenes...Athenian Philosopher c.440 B.C.
TO respond to:
"In fact, i would much rather carry a tanto-style blade, folding or fixed, than this box-cutter-on-the-juice. "
The basic defense in Escrima is to "de-fang the snake", which means removing the weapon from the attacking hand. The easiest way to do that is to cut the flexor tendons in the wrist, which are the tendons that hold the hand closed. Once those tendons are cut, the hand opens and the knife drops. That stops the fight with minimal risk of lethality
In practice, the back of the left arm often blocks the attacking hand while right hand draw cuts. A draw cut places the base of the blade against the attacking arm, and the cut is made (the blade is drawn) from the base of the blade to the tip, which explains the name.
Until bone is hit, the longer the cutting edge, the deeper the cut. If legal restrictions force you to use a three inch blade, you want a full three inch cutting edge. Let's compare the Ronin with a 3" blade against the tanto you mentioned. If the tanto also has a three inch blade, maybe a half inch of the tip curves AWAY from the cutting edge, which means, for draw cuts, the cutting edge is effectively a half inch shorter than the Ronin.
The geometry of a tanto is stronger than the Ronin -- if you must pierce metal or bamboo armor. You don't see a whole lot of that on the street. What you do see is winter coats and leather jackets. If your opponent is dressed like that, your strategy will probably be to insert the point of the knife through the sleeve, and the flesh, and cut out. That requires a bit more precision than a simple draw cut, but it produces the same result. The point of the Ronin will penetrate heavy clothing easily. Better than a tanto. Better than most other blade shapes.
The texturing on the back of the blade encourages a firm grip, but it is also useful in reverse grip (blade comes out of the little finger side of the hand, usually edge out). A worked example.
Someone aims an angle 1 knife attack against the left side of your neck. You have a Ronin in reverse grip, and you block his arm with your right forearm. It would have been nice if you had executed a left forearm block and cut with your knife, but you were not quite fast enough. You saved yourself, but not for long. He can pull back and strike again. Worse, he can draw cut your blocking arm, which will disarm you. Fortunately, there is a defense. You can hook your knife over his attacking arm, pull down, and pass his arm, and his knife, between the two of you. As his arm passes bottom center, you can turn your knife and cut his arm while your left hand pins him momentarily. As your knife returns, you can cut his upper arm. That also puts you outside his arms, which is a better place to be. The key to the hook is control of the attacker's arm.
Big blade, big hook, OK. Small knife, small hook, not so easy. If you are going to hook with a small knife, texture on the back of the blade will help keep you attached to the attacker's arm as you pass it. A small thing that might keep you alive.
I would be the first to admit that a feature is useless if one does not have the skill to use it. The Ronin enhances skill. It does not replace it.
Qship
"In fact, i would much rather carry a tanto-style blade, folding or fixed, than this box-cutter-on-the-juice. "
The basic defense in Escrima is to "de-fang the snake", which means removing the weapon from the attacking hand. The easiest way to do that is to cut the flexor tendons in the wrist, which are the tendons that hold the hand closed. Once those tendons are cut, the hand opens and the knife drops. That stops the fight with minimal risk of lethality
In practice, the back of the left arm often blocks the attacking hand while right hand draw cuts. A draw cut places the base of the blade against the attacking arm, and the cut is made (the blade is drawn) from the base of the blade to the tip, which explains the name.
Until bone is hit, the longer the cutting edge, the deeper the cut. If legal restrictions force you to use a three inch blade, you want a full three inch cutting edge. Let's compare the Ronin with a 3" blade against the tanto you mentioned. If the tanto also has a three inch blade, maybe a half inch of the tip curves AWAY from the cutting edge, which means, for draw cuts, the cutting edge is effectively a half inch shorter than the Ronin.
The geometry of a tanto is stronger than the Ronin -- if you must pierce metal or bamboo armor. You don't see a whole lot of that on the street. What you do see is winter coats and leather jackets. If your opponent is dressed like that, your strategy will probably be to insert the point of the knife through the sleeve, and the flesh, and cut out. That requires a bit more precision than a simple draw cut, but it produces the same result. The point of the Ronin will penetrate heavy clothing easily. Better than a tanto. Better than most other blade shapes.
The texturing on the back of the blade encourages a firm grip, but it is also useful in reverse grip (blade comes out of the little finger side of the hand, usually edge out). A worked example.
Someone aims an angle 1 knife attack against the left side of your neck. You have a Ronin in reverse grip, and you block his arm with your right forearm. It would have been nice if you had executed a left forearm block and cut with your knife, but you were not quite fast enough. You saved yourself, but not for long. He can pull back and strike again. Worse, he can draw cut your blocking arm, which will disarm you. Fortunately, there is a defense. You can hook your knife over his attacking arm, pull down, and pass his arm, and his knife, between the two of you. As his arm passes bottom center, you can turn your knife and cut his arm while your left hand pins him momentarily. As your knife returns, you can cut his upper arm. That also puts you outside his arms, which is a better place to be. The key to the hook is control of the attacker's arm.
Big blade, big hook, OK. Small knife, small hook, not so easy. If you are going to hook with a small knife, texture on the back of the blade will help keep you attached to the attacker's arm as you pass it. A small thing that might keep you alive.
I would be the first to admit that a feature is useless if one does not have the skill to use it. The Ronin enhances skill. It does not replace it.
Qship
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Michael Janich
- Member
- Posts: 3292
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Longmont, CO USA
- Contact:
To all:
Wow, I go away for a few days to teach MBC/CBC in Washington and come back to quite the lively discussion. Pretty neat.
First of all, to all the forumites who understand and support the Ronin/Yojimbo design, thank you for stepping up and sharing your thoughts. I truly appreciate your support and confidence in the design and your efforts to explain and defend it on my behalf. You guys are awesome.
To Sal, thank you for taking the time out of your crazy schedule to offer your well-reasoned thoughts on this topic. Your presence is one of the things that makes this forum and Spyderco's approach to the MBC market so great.
To "bracial_stabber," thank you for resurrecting this thread and giving the Ronin/Yojimbo fans something to chat about. I carry a Ronin every day and am willing to bet my life on it and the skills with which I am capable of wielding it. If you can do the same with your personal choice of knife, there is no problem here. I guess there also isn't much more to say.
Stay safe,
mike j
Wow, I go away for a few days to teach MBC/CBC in Washington and come back to quite the lively discussion. Pretty neat.
First of all, to all the forumites who understand and support the Ronin/Yojimbo design, thank you for stepping up and sharing your thoughts. I truly appreciate your support and confidence in the design and your efforts to explain and defend it on my behalf. You guys are awesome.
To Sal, thank you for taking the time out of your crazy schedule to offer your well-reasoned thoughts on this topic. Your presence is one of the things that makes this forum and Spyderco's approach to the MBC market so great.
To "bracial_stabber," thank you for resurrecting this thread and giving the Ronin/Yojimbo fans something to chat about. I carry a Ronin every day and am willing to bet my life on it and the skills with which I am capable of wielding it. If you can do the same with your personal choice of knife, there is no problem here. I guess there also isn't much more to say.
Stay safe,
mike j
Sal or Michael, my intention for a "BTTT" was simply to request the estimated production/release date for the Folding Ronin/Yojimbo, any idea?
(I’m mildly irked that the subsequent trolling machinations of that drooling feeble-minded, fecal-chewing, sycophantic, effeminate dipstick under the pseudonym bracial_stabber had interrupted my original query.)
Edited by - bildrac on 2/11/2003 10:29:13 PM
(I’m mildly irked that the subsequent trolling machinations of that drooling feeble-minded, fecal-chewing, sycophantic, effeminate dipstick under the pseudonym bracial_stabber had interrupted my original query.)
Edited by - bildrac on 2/11/2003 10:29:13 PM
Methinks the intended spelling was "brachial?" A downward stab into chest which severs the brachial artery is deceptively deadly; the blood flows into the chest cavity instead of from the exterior wound. The victim can seem relatively OK for a few seconds, but "bleeds out" quickly, with no way to apply pressure or clamp the wound. Of course, the brachial artery continues into the arm, where it can be cut. A very aggressive screen name, for sure.
Edited by - Rex G on 2/13/2003 11:19:20 AM
Edited by - Rex G on 2/13/2003 11:20:32 AM
Edited by - Rex G on 2/13/2003 11:19:20 AM
Edited by - Rex G on 2/13/2003 11:20:32 AM