CPM-S35VN and CrimsonTideShooter test

[Cliff Stamp]

Maybe on the surface it looked like a win-win, , , lower production cost for the manufacturer, and a good steel for the buyer.

All steels are win-win, it is the nature of steels, it is always a balance of moving properties around. S35VN was intended to be tougher, easier to grind/finish, and have a very comparable wear resistance and hardening response. Thus it was intended to deal with the problems that makers were having and customers were noting but still retain the properties that both liked. That being said, it isn't wise to ignore any feedback because there is always something that can be learned if you are diligent and if people are sensible they will respect both the effort and the knowledge gained.

[MIL-DOT]

All steels are win-win.

I'm apologize,Cliff, I don't mean to disrespect your clearly formidable knowledge on the subject, but from a strictly logical standpoint, this makes no sense at all. It's like saying "all plastics" or "all woods" are "win-win".
They obviously are not, as some characteristics are beneficial in certain circumstances,and detrimental in others. I'm sure you yourself could cite numerous examples without even trying too hard.
In the case of the steel in question, we may,(MAY) be minimizing brittleness and chipping, while sacrificing edge retention. If so, we are losing edge longevity, but gaining ease of sharpening.
It's all a compromise, a trade-off. But it surely ain't "win-win".

[Cliff Stamp]

...but from a strictly logical standpoint, this makes no sense at all.

One of the reasons why conversations are difficult over the internet. What I said was perfectly clear from my point of view of what I was intending to say, but I can understand from the way you were looking at it that it read nonsensical. What I meant is that the steel was designed to both win for both the makers and users in that it was to deal with the issues/problems that both raised and at the same time retain the properties that both appreciated. It was not designed to win for makers and lose for users.

[MIL-DOT]

Thanks,Cliff, that makes sense. Sorry if I came off like I was getting up in your face, that wasn't the case at all. As you diplomatically pointed out, conversations ( without misunderstandings) can be difficult on the internet. :)

[JNewell]

I'll buy that. :D I do see a developmental arc from 440V to S30V to S35VN, though - or am I seeing things? :)

One of the reasons why conversations are difficult over the internet. What I said was perfectly clear from my point of view of what I was intending to say, but I can understand from the way you were looking at it that it read nonsensical. What I meant is that the steel was designed to both win for both the makers and users in that it was to deal with the issues/problems that both raised and at the same time retain the properties that both appreciated. It was not designed to win for makers and lose for users.

[Cliff Stamp]

I'll buy that. :D I do see a developmental arc from 440V to S30V to S35VN, though

Yes, there is a general trend continuing. While where were knife makers that used 440V/S60V and had high praise from it there were problems :

-difficult to finish and harden
-chipping resistance was low
-difficult to sharpen (grindability is very low)

Tom Mayo used it and was happy with it but :

-his customers cut soft materials and were very skilled (hunting guides)
-he sharpened the knives for them
-he didn't do his own heat treating
-he made small knives

S30V eventually phased out S60V, even Mayo switched though it is arguable that S60V would be better for what he was using - but market pressure and availability etc. are concerns. If you are the only one using a steel it becomes difficult to buy, heat treat and even selling as you might get tired of "Why 60V everyone else is using 30V" after the million'th time you get asked?

But yes, if you look at S35VN it is a similar but much less dramatic type of design consideration which lead to its development. The only thing that I find ironic is how certain makers/manufacturers and users who are aggressively promoting S35VN claiming all sorts of problems with S30V but yet none of these were existent when they were using (and promoting) S30V.

[Ankerson]

But yes, if you look at S35VN it is a similar but much less dramatic type of design consideration which lead to its development. The only thing that I find ironic is how certain makers/manufacturers and users who are aggressively promoting S35VN claiming all sorts of problems with S30V but yet none of these were existent when they were using (and promoting) S30V.

It's called Marketing and Hype..... Read complete and utter BS.....

[chuck_roxas45]

It's called Marketing and Hype..... Read complete and utter BS.....

I get worried every time a product is excessively hyped.

[Ankerson]

I get worried every time a product is excessively hyped.

When something is hyped up to the max ect it usually never lives up to what it is Hyped up to be or even remotely close to it.

It's almost like just because a certian manufacturer had a hand in S35VN the whole knife world is just supposed to go OOOHHHHH..... AAAAHHHHHH...... OOOOOOOHHHHHH and say it's the greatest thing since sliced bread......

PLEASE.....


Crucible isn't saying S35VN is more than it really is, and they make the freaking steel so I don't get all the marketing and hype.....

I am only interested in the facts..... NOT hype and BS....

Yeah it was a slight rant because I can't post on a public forum what I really think.

[Ankerson]

If people buy into the hype of S35VN it will be the shortest run of steel in history, even shorter than S60V.

Performance is basically the same as S30V from what I have seen so far in my testing.

It's slated to be a replacement for S30V, direct replacement that will give about the same performance, but is easier to work with for the manufacturers.

It's really not anymore than that.

Seems to be a good steel from what I have experienced so far, but not what it's been hyped up to be.

Nothing really noteworthy or earth shattering at all...

If S35VN dies it will be because of the HYPE, not because of performance. It does what it is supposed to do.

[Slash]

I must have missed all the hype. Surely, someone of high stature was behind it and not just a bunch of wannabe steel experts...right?

[Ankerson]

I must have missed all the hype. Surely, someone of high stature was behind it and not just a bunch of wannabe steel experts...right?

I guess you have been living in a Bubble for the past year then.....

MOST of the hype has been from fan boys and others who have been marketing it as the latest and greatest and stating that a certian manufacturer is changing over to it so blah, blah, blah.. and was involved in the development.....to sell knives. Riding on a certian manufacturers reputation instead of letting the steel speak for itself in the end.

There has been a ton of HYPE with this steel.

It's it a good steel.... YES

Is it the greatest thing since sliced bread...... Nope

If people like the performance of S30V then they will like S35VN.

If their expectations are any higher than that they will be disappointed sadly.

I believe in the end that it could be a good replacement for S30V once it all comes down to getting enough knives out and once more testing is done to see exactly what they have to so with S35VN on a large scale.


I really like Spydercos approach to it:

Here is this Mule in S35VN.....

Ok, that did well, here is this new Native 5 in S35VN....

Nothing more that that. :)

[DallasSTB]

...
I believe in the end that it could be a good replacement for S30V once it all comes down to getting enough knives out and once more testing is done to see exactly what they have to so with S35VN on a large scale....


I really like Spydercos approach to it

Yep - the same reason I don't buy a new car model for a couple of years after it's introduced. And one of the reasons that I admire Sal so much. Less ego, more engagement.

[Cliff Stamp]

If people buy into the hype of S35VN it will be the shortest run of steel in history, even shorter than S60V.

There is no hype from the manufacturer :

[INDENT]
CPM S35VN is a martensitic stainless steel designed to offer
improved toughness over CPM S30V. It is also easier to machine
and polish than CPM S30V. Its chemistry has been rebalanced
so that it forms some niobium carbides along with vanadium and
chromium carbides. Substituting niobium carbides for some of the
vanadium carbides makes CPM S35VN about 15-20% tougher
than CPM S30V without any loss of wear resistance. CPM S35VN’s
improved toughness gives it better resistance to edge chipping.
Because both vanadium and niobium carbides are harder and more
effective than chromium carbides in providing wear resistance,
the CPM stainless blade steels offer improved edge retention
over conventional high chromium steels such as 440C and D2.[/INDENT]

Niobium has been used for exactly these purposes in HSLA, cold work and even HSS steels for more than 30 years. There is a wealth of published materials data which supports the statement from Crucible. Independent CATRA tests, not from Crucible, also show it has the same long term edge retention as S30V.

[Ankerson]

There is no hype from the manufacturer :

[INDENT]
CPM S35VN is a martensitic stainless steel designed to offer
improved toughness over CPM S30V. It is also easier to machine
and polish than CPM S30V. Its chemistry has been rebalanced
so that it forms some niobium carbides along with vanadium and
chromium carbides. Substituting niobium carbides for some of the
vanadium carbides makes CPM S35VN about 15-20% tougher
than CPM S30V without any loss of wear resistance. CPM S35VN’s
improved toughness gives it better resistance to edge chipping.
Because both vanadium and niobium carbides are harder and more
effective than chromium carbides in providing wear resistance,
the CPM stainless blade steels offer improved edge retention
over conventional high chromium steels such as 440C and D2.[/INDENT]

Niobium has been used for exactly these purposes in HSLA, cold work and even HSS steels for more than 30 years. There is a wealth of published materials data which supports the statement from Crucible. Independent CATRA tests, not from Crucible, also show it has the same long term edge retention as S30V.

Yes Cliff that is what I posted, there is no hype from Crucible.

And yes I already tested it and found it to have basically the same edge retention as S30V from my testing.

Both have been posted here and other places.

[Ankerson]

Yep - the same reason I don't buy a new car model for a couple of years after it's introduced. And one of the reasons that I admire Sal so much. Less ego, more engagement.

Yep Exactly. :cool: :spyder:

[JNewell]

I get worried every time a product is excessively hyped.

You must spend a lot of time deeply worried! :eek: :D :spyder:

[JNewell]

Excellent info. I am wondering...all the issues observed so far have been with folders. I realize there aren't many fixed blade knives out there with S35VN, but there are at least two: the Spyderco Mule (which got a lot of use, testing and abuse) and the CRK Nyala. I don't recall reading concerns about their performance (and the overal grind and edge geometry are quite different on those two blades). I wonder if the current techniques are less than optimal for folders but work for fixed blades?

Yes, there is a general trend continuing. While where were knife makers that used 440V/S60V and had high praise from it there were problems :

-difficult to finish and harden
-chipping resistance was low
-difficult to sharpen (grindability is very low)

Tom Mayo used it and was happy with it but :

-his customers cut soft materials and were very skilled (hunting guides)
-he sharpened the knives for them
-he didn't do his own heat treating
-he made small knives

S30V eventually phased out S60V, even Mayo switched though it is arguable that S60V would be better for what he was using - but market pressure and availability etc. are concerns. If you are the only one using a steel it becomes difficult to buy, heat treat and even selling as you might get tired of "Why 60V everyone else is using 30V" after the million'th time you get asked?

But yes, if you look at S35VN it is a similar but much less dramatic type of design consideration which lead to its development. The only thing that I find ironic is how certain makers/manufacturers and users who are aggressively promoting S35VN claiming all sorts of problems with S30V but yet none of these were existent when they were using (and promoting) S30V.

[Cliff Stamp]

Both have been posted here and other places.

Hype, yes. The problem is that some consumers get way over zealous and as a manufacturer it is not always so easy to reign someone in. For example it is all over the internets that sharpening H1 increases the edge retention. Spyderco has never claimed this, but it is hard to fault them for people running wild with the idea. I have mentioned in a couple of places that no data from Spyderco ever supported this, nor was it even implied - but it is like trying soap up the ocean with a shamwow.

With any new steel there were be a few guys who run wild, and there will also be makers/manufacturers who decide that it is time to go crazy with allegations. I have spoke out against this before, but I also have some sympathy for them because it is not the easiest thing in the world to explain to someone who is not really into knives what it means to move from S30V to S35VN and thus you end up with "it is just a better steel" which for a lot of people is what they want to hear.

The other thing is that the placebo effect is can easily dominate any results. For example Mike Stewart has spoke out very strong against S30V noting that the average user can not sharpen it properly and thus the performance is always very low compared to what it can achieve, but S35VN solves this problem completely thus it is a great steel.

Now I would dispute this strongly for any number of reasons :

-the change in total carbide volume is only 0.5%

-niobium is still a very hard carbide, it is softer than vanadium carbide but harder than almost all sharpening abrasives (it is even harder than silicon carbide)

-there is still quite a large amount of vanadium carbide, to be specific the amount was reduced by just 7% of the total carbide volume

There is no way given these small changes that the material properties could be so dramatic and S35VN is wonderful and easy to sharpen while S30V is difficult to impossible. But regardless, if you put 20 people in a room and gave them all one knife and then another and told them the first knife was very difficult to sharpen and the next one had a steel which was reformulated to make it very easy to sharpen then 19/20 people are going to note that the second one was indeed a vast improvement if they accept you as an authority.

I know what the placebo effect is and have extensive training and experience in measurement bias, but still I have to take extensive precautions or it will easily influence, or even dominate results and again I am actually trained to eliminate it and it is still by far the largest problem I have to deal with in any performance comparison.

[flipe8]

I gotta hand it to you, Cliff, you make this subject very interesting. Each time you post, you answer questions I didn't even know I had!