CPM-S35VN and CrimsonTideShooter test

[sal]

Hi all,

There is a thread on another forum that discusses a test of CPM-S35VN done by CrimsonTideShooter.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... VN-Related...

Part of his test included a Spyderco Native5 with CPM-S35VN. Since We don't think it proper to discuss our Native5 on another company forum, I started this thread for discussion here.

I also wanted to get input from some of our local experts like Cliff and Joe.

We are trying to retrieve the knife in question so we can test it here in our lab. We are also testing some of our Native5 CPM-S35VN models that are on the shelf. Initial testing of Rc showed an average of 59.5. Next week we'll CATRA test models here to see if they're consistent with our earlier S35VN findings. We'll keep you posted.

sal

[Bradley]

I believe jdavis882/CrimsonTideShooter would be more than willing to send it, just let him know.

[razorsharp]

love how you listen to customers, very interested in results :)

[speedcut]

Hat off to you Mr. Glesser! another class act... :spyder:

[Ankerson]

Yep, Sal is a class guy all the way around. :)

[Ankerson]

The rope cutting test looked to be pretty straight forward with a polished edge cutting on a cutting board and 3/8" rope.

Although it's a different cutting method than I use when I cut rope I don't see anything odd about the method.

[gull wing]

Oh yes, I'll be watching this one with great intrest.

[MIL-DOT]

I had been wondering where El Jefe was during this whole discussion, now I'm greatly encouraged by his appearance, and desire to quickly get to the bottom of this. :)

[moonberrys]

This is why I love spyderco!! I will continue to buy your knives.

[JNewell]

You guys are the best. :spyder: There's always a learning curve...whatever the results, I have no question things will move upward and onward here. It's almost dizzying to consider what's happened in the last fifteen years, and Spyderco has been one of the biggest drivers of these improvements. Thanks, Sal.

[matrixone976]

Dear mr. glesser,
just a couple of questions 1)how well does your S35VN steel fair against what you saw in the test. i know this is a CRK sebenza. but in your opinion, 2)what does your testing show in terms of how the Native 5 holds up?

thank you for you time.

p.s: i was given a tenacious and then started switching over to spyderco exclusively. no other knife brand works for me. i've tried boker and cold steel just to name a few. spyderco is truly the knife company for me. fit and finsh is always to me at least spot on and those 30 degree inclusive angles perform so well and are #$%^ sharp the way i now prefer my knives to be.

Hi all,

There is a thread on another forum that discusses a test of CPM-S35VN done by CrimsonTideShooter.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... VN-Related...

Part of his test included a Spyderco Native5 with CPM-S35VN. Since We don't think it proper to discuss our Native5 on another company forum, I started this thread for discussion here.

I also wanted to get input from some of our local experts like Cliff and Joe.

We are trying to retrieve the knife in question so we can test it here in our lab. We are also testing some of our Native5 CPM-S35VN models that are on the shelf. Initial testing of Rc showed an average of 59.5. Next week we'll CATRA test models here to see if they're consistent with our earlier S35VN findings. We'll keep you posted.

sal

[MIL-DOT]

.......just a couple of questions 1)how well does your S35VN steel fair against what you saw in the test. i know this is a CRK sebenza. but in your opinion, 2)what does your testing show in terms of how the Native 5 holds up.....

In the thread that started this little s***-storm, the OP posted a test from CrimsonTideShooter that was with the Native 5.
Here is the link to that You-tube video review.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3nfCJtA ... e=youtu.be

[hunterseeker5]

Interesting..... if it rolls so easily I guess that explains why everyone was initially shouting about how much more chip resistant it is than S30V.....

[Cliff Stamp]

I also wanted to get input ...

When I do rope cutting tests I run on samples of five lengths of rope selected at random from a floating stock of about a dozen rolls. Normal rope off the shelf is not certified in any regard for content and thus unless you random sample you can get odd deviations, one small piece of grit in rope can also easily squat in a section of edge.

I normally run about 5 runs and then average the results to produce a blunting curve. As blunting is a strongly nonlinear response and is very sensitive to initial sharpness and cutting speed and force applied as well. I also run median statistics to take care of any extreme outliers as again you are looking at a non-linear response and it is easy perturbed.

Finally, there is no way S30V and S35VN when equally heat treated could even be told apart unless you could measure sharpness to the order of a percent, again as the blunting response is nonlinear. In fact I am 100% confident that if you took two S30V mules and two S35VN mules, and sharpened each one of them two times, the eight blunting curves would overlap.

The CATRA test on the blades already published by another company show just that, the two steels are not significantly different enough for a one shot comparison to tell them apart.

[Blerv]

At the limit steel has to chip, roll or nothing. We all prefer the last but it doesn't always happen. Personally I don't dig micro chipping which with s30v's stigma (perhaps unfair) you would think this change would be welcome.

S30v has never been a fave nor a foe. I'll tolerate anything in a Sage though :) .

Really looking forwardcto CATRA results and results from Joe, Jim and Cliff. Or any of those.

[matrixone976]

the thread on the other board had just the 2 CRK videos. thanks for the missing piece of info. i wanted to see what sal had to say about his native 5 and the blade steel he chose for it too.

In the thread that started this little s***-storm, the OP posted a test from CrimsonTideShooter that was with the Native 5.
Here is the link to that You-tube video review.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3nfCJtA ... e=youtu.be

[Cliff Stamp]

A
S30v has never been a fave nor a foe.

I had a number of non-positive experiences as well, but had a number of good ones as well, a few Spyderco's and a Wilson South Fork were solid for a high wear steel.

But you can expect fairly large difference in knives due to blunting being nonlinear. I took a bunch of S30V's awhile ago and compared to some ZDP-189's and while the ZDP's would on average outperform it, there were some over laps. In some detail, S30V :



ZDP-189 :



Then all the blades averaged :



Note that while the average of a bunch of them shows a clear advantage, the best S30V actually does better than the worst ZDP-189.

The reason this can happen is blunting is nonlinear and there are variances from steel to steel, heat treating, etc. all make influences.

I would only not expect these overlaps if the steels were very different, i.e., a bunch of AUS-6A blades should not overlap a bunch of ATS-34 blades in high wear tests for example.

[Ankerson]

When I do rope cutting tests I run on samples of five lengths of rope selected at random from a floating stock of about a dozen rolls. Normal rope off the shelf is not certified in any regard for content and thus unless you random sample you can get odd deviations, one small piece of grit in rope can also easily squat in a section of edge.

I normally run about 5 runs and then average the results to produce a blunting curve. As blunting is a strongly nonlinear response and is very sensitive to initial sharpness and cutting speed and force applied as well. I also run median statistics to take care of any extreme outliers as again you are looking at a non-linear response and it is easy perturbed.

Finally, there is no way S30V and S35VN when equally heat treated could even be told apart unless you could measure sharpness to the order of a percent, again as the blunting response is nonlinear. In fact I am 100% confident that if you took two S30V mules and two S35VN mules, and sharpened each one of them two times, the eight blunting curves would overlap.

The CATRA test on the blades already published by another company show just that, the two steels are not significantly different enough for a one shot comparison to tell them apart.

That is exactly what my rope cutting data shows.

It was like i tested 2 S30V blades or 2 S35VN blades instead of testing S30V and S35VN.

[Ankerson]

Cliff,

Got one for you...

How about 300 cuts on orange 3 wire power cord and still shaves hair, that's S35VN at 58-59 RC.... Was posted over on BF...

Thoughts on that one? :D

[The Mastiff]

I've been trying to catch up on everything that's been posted both here and the other forums. It's an interesting phenomena.

What I'm referring to is the explosion of posts and worry over very few incidents that we don't have the reasons for yet.

I'm glad Cliff, and Jim have posted here already. CTS has been doing a bunch of posting and unfortunately was getting flak for it on a different forum including by a guy who did a test of his own, admittedly had a tiny roll, but attempted to use it as evidence to refute others results. I'm not going to get into the subject of what other manufacturers say on their forums in the Spyderco forum. Sal is a class act and doesn't deserve to get involved in cross forum wars or hard feelings resulting from such stuff. :)

I don't really see anything going on here that surprises me with the steel or knives. The knife was made to roll, not chip. It seems to be doing exactly that. If it has been too easy than get the knives into the labs so we can see what the heck's going on and get it behind our knife community one way or another.

I see nothing that will keep me from ordering the Native 5 in these results. If I was to have a problem with it, just like any other QC problem I'd get it resolved with no added drama. To be honest I'd rather have a knife that rolls it's edge than a bunch of needless drama. For me these knives are a hobby and relaxation rather than adding problems to my life.

As far as S35V goes I'll make this offer. If anybody that actually makes knives and has the proper heat treat equipment ( no barbecue grills please nor home made propane ovens with no temp control other than eyeballing colors. These need very real precision heat treats.) for these very sophisticated highly alloyed steels and wants a free piece of S35VN to try please PM me. It's a bad year for me and unfortunately I'll have to ask for money for shipping. I'll be getting some water jet cut along with some other steels for future projects and I'll cut a few extra pieces in case. This might take me a couple of months but I'll get it to you. Please e-mail me at mastiffone@hotmail.com.

Yep, I'm a cruware/super blue/52100 /O-1/3V guy but I still edc knives in S30V, and have found them good performers. I suspect in time we will be saying as much for S35VN. If not? Well, there's plenty of more great cutlery steels available and for everybody here there is one just suited for you.

Recall all the silly claims about S30V conspiracies and please keep the now ridiculousness of those statements in mind when getting caught up in this flurry of posts about 3-4 incidents of unknown causes? Note please that we do have believable reports of what I'd call very good performance by an engineer/mod on another forum who found no edge damage on rope after his testing. I also know how well my mule performed for me.

Yes, and please don't give me a history lesson on S30V and what was said, and not said. I was there for that and have my own viewpoint on it. I'm not much into conspiracy theories.

A lot of the tech stuff and guesses have been covered here and elsewhere and I don't have the time and energy to go over all of them point by point, nor repeat my own postings to hear myself talk.

I will repeat the offer to find out for yourself with a spyderco under warranty, or a roll your own with some annealed , thickness about .180 which I can provide.

Joe/Raleigh