Vicinadp wrote:Why do most people make this about it being a budget knife
Because the Tenacious IS a budget knife.
I really love the knife and I would pay more for a more expensive steel. I don't care that it will cost more
Your preferences (as well as the preferences of most here on the forum) don't accurately reflect the desires of the general knife buying populace. Because you or I are willing to pay more doesn't mean the target demographic for this knife would be willing to pay the same.
spyderkoholic wrote:The value line is awesome, but there is still no reason not to have a Tenacious with VG10 steel. Afterall the Byrd line is a more affordable line of Spyderco knives, i.e. Meadowlark-Delica, CaraCara-Endura, Robin-Dragonfly, etc. So why not do the same for the Tenacious?
I have other, more expensive knives from Spyderco, but that is really not the point. The desire is to have a knife that is really popular, and offered with a different steel, for those who would want one. Not buy a different knife with different steel, but buy a Tenacious with different steel.
Excuse the rant, but I really would love to own a Tenacious with VG10 steel. I know it would probably never happen, but it's still cool to think about it. :D
Also, there's not many (if any) spyderco knives in that general size and lock type so there's not really a middle price range similar option. As already mentioned, the sage 1 is the closest thing I can think of.
I wonder why people are still saying the Tenacious is a budget knife only, or something close to that? Was I the only one who read Sal's post? Obviously Sal, and the rest of the Spyderco Team, would not waste time and money looking at Carpenter Steel for the Tenacious, if only a small percentage of people would buy it.
Not trying to make this sound angry, cause I'm not, just pointing out that the man himself, Sal, said they are doing something with Carpenter Steel.
On the Tenacious and steel. We'll see if the maker can work with the higher carbon steels from Carpenter? If they can, we'll try a Tenacious with a higher carbon steel.
Just because they make a version with a better steel doesn't mean the value line won't exist. There's enough people out there that love the design of the Tenacious that would be willing to upgrade to a better steel within the framework of the existing design.
Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat. Theodore Roosevelt
M55 wrote:Do you guys seriously think that a knife with tighter tolerances and higher quality components can't be made in China?
It's not a matter of China vs any place else. All humans have the same amount of thumbs. Well, at least most .
Its a matter if the specific shop designed for fantastic quality (ie all Spyderco plants) for a great price can keep up with the worlds best makers. Even if great to best is 10-20% it's a difference. Some knives out of Taichung, Golden, and Moki are approaching custom levels of F&F.
Sal said they might do some Tenacious' in a high carbon steel, awesome! It won't be a Gayle Bradley but nothing else is. An amazing user with no-holds-barred materials? Yup!
On the Tenacious and steel. We'll see if the maker can work with the higher carbon steels from Carpenter? If they can, we'll try a Tenacious with a higher carbon steel.
sal
Thanks, Sal. Very much looking forward to it! A hard steel Tenacious (and Resilience combo) would be even better for the outdoors.
Blerv wrote:It's not a matter of China vs any place else. All humans have the same amount of thumbs. Well, at least most .
Its a matter if the specific shop designed for fantastic quality (ie all Spyderco plants) for a great price can keep up with the worlds best makers. Even if great to best is 10-20% it's a difference. Some knives out of Taichung, Golden, and Moki are approaching custom levels of F&F.
Sal said they might do some Tenacious' in a high carbon steel, awesome! It won't be a Gayle Bradley but nothing else is. An amazing user with no-holds-barred materials? Yup!
Jay Ev took what i said out of context I am saying that they make it only the fact that it is a budget knife currently I love the knife as it is now. I just wish it could have higher quality steel.
Blerv wrote:I admit going crazy on definitions. Sorry.
Fact is a very similar knife could be done in Taiwan with tighter tolerances and American steel. This leaves the value line where it should be.
Do people want a similar knife or one with the same name? Are they willing to pay more for materials with the same quality or want something akin to the Sage?
8Cr13Mov is an outstanding steel. The average person with factory angles would have fits in a blind test telling between it and a premium material. If the people want it to be the next Manix/Para modular platform tho give it to them :) . Maybe if the msrp increase is mild it makes sense.
You hit the nail on the head with this. I wasnt trying to make a big deal about the budget knife. I am just saying I would personally pay more for an upgraded version.
Sal raised an excellent point. It's not only what we want, or what Spyderco wants, that's important, it sometimes comes down to what the maker's equipment is capable of handling. That's not an insult or a put down. Moki, their finest Japanese maker, cannot work with solid ZDP-189, which is why models made by them use laminated ZDP. IIRC, the maker of the Tenacious line experimented with using the 9Cr18Mo that was used in the Mule, but had difficulties with it.
And yes, China, like every other country, is capable of turning out any level of quality from junk to superb, it's more a question of what the American public is willing to pay for something with "Made in China" written on it. It's perception, not reality, but reality does not drive sales, perception does and the perception is that things from China must be inexpensive to be desirable. Even the high quality Taiwanese knives from Spyderco's Taichung maker have faced resistance in that regard.
I'm curious if it would become a principle thing though once the economic pitfalls were crossed.
"Hey look Spyderco is having Chinese knives made with Japanese steels." *awkward crickets*
The fact that people are pushing so hard for a Tenacious with any steel but a budget one is silly. It's a budget knife...if it becomes expensive than what's the point? There are a plethora of American and Japanese "premium" models that are comparable. I'd rather see them design a knife with similar features elsewhere than do some confusing swapperoo to appease folks loyal to a model name.
For three times the price of a Tenacious you can get a Sage1. It may not be three times the knife but it's not far off.
I prefer the shape of the handle and blade of the Tenacious over the Sage 1. Can't really compare the two except for the lock.
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We all ask for different steels on knives all the time but when it comes to the Tenacious we're just suppose to accept it and move on. The Native is a good example of a low priced knife that was improved and now costs 50% more. Is there a reason why we can't have the original Tenacious made with 8Cr13MoV and another made with an improved steel? I have to admit that the Tenacious was my first Spyderco and one of the reasons for getting it was the price but I don't see the crime in having one with an updated steel. I think there's room in this world for two different Tenacious' to live.
I'm still a newbie and don't know all that much yet, but I have a feeling the new iteration will take it from $30 to $300. Hopefully there will be a middle ground with an upgraded steel us poor guys can afford.
Even though I've bought a few more expensive :spyder: , I still love the feel and operation of my Tenacious. Can't really explain it; it just feels right.
angusW wrote:I prefer the shape of the handle and blade of the Tenacious over the Sage 1. Can't really compare the two except for the lock.
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We all ask for different steels on knives all the time but when it comes to the Tenacious we're just suppose to accept it and move on. The Native is a good example of a low priced knife that was improved and now costs 50% more. Is there a reason why we can't have the original Tenacious made with 8Cr13MoV and another made with an improved steel? I have to admit that the Tenacious was my first Spyderco and one of the reasons for getting it was the price but I don't see the crime in having one with an updated steel. I think there's room in this world for two different Tenacious' to live.
The Sage was an example of Taichung making a liner lock and only that. They are fully capable of making a choiless drop point. IMHO far better than the Tenacious makers tightening their quality to a similar point.
If people are happy with it minus the blade steel that's easy. If the g10 and F&F could use improving it needs a new maker (or at least this version).
Blerv wrote:Chinese Spydies don't get American steels due to cost of shipping it over. They don't get Japanese steels ever out of principle. 8Cr13Mov is still far more corrosive resistant than non-stainless blades which hardly patina with proper treatment and use.
Personally I'd enjoy the tenacious and even oil the blade if you want to be extra careful. Grab a Para2, Superleaf, or Manix2 for the premium components. It's good to have a worker and a baby :) .
I know this is old but spyderco has vg10 which is Japanese steel in several knives like delica and endura. These can be had in good shape for $50 on eBay.
Sorry.
