chuck_roxas45 wrote:Oooooh boy! This just gets better and better. :D :D :D
I agree!!!! 2 is better than one. In fact, I'd love a full size camp axe from spyderco as well.
I would love it if spyderco took the same aproach to the subject of hatchets/hawks as it does to knives. Make one that will out perform all the others. Its just that simple, thats what I want.
Thanks again SAL, just TWO more things I NEED to buy now.
Actually three would be nice, I'd like to see a Machete. Pricewise, it would probably be hard to compete with others though. I have several of the cheap ones ($20 or so) that I use to beat the brush when clearing fence line.
sal wrote:I'm also geting input from Kristi that the Miliary has been asking for a tactical hawk as well. So we'll add Mike (Janich) and Kristi to the team. Although it's possible that we may end up with two hawks. Two's better'n none :)
sal
I have been away from this thread for quite some time...thinking that the talk was all about a small utility hatchet I bowed out a long time ago cause I have no use for such a tool....after reading the entire thread and catching up I am thrilled about the idea that a tactical hawk might be in the works....So I'm going to keep my eyes peeled and my ears open start contributing again. Thanks to Sal and the guys...specially Ookami for keeping this thread running.....Doc :D
"Always Judge a man by the way he treats someone who could be of no possible use to him"
Sal, any ideas on where this might be made? I know the Taiwan maker is doing great things with difficult designs, but I'd love to see a USA-made Spyderco Tomahawk.
If we can stay focused on the design with Ookami and Mike, we will probably have a design in 6 months. Production depends on the capacity of the US factory as well as our other makers.
DCDesigns wrote: I would love it if spyderco took the same aproach to the subject of hatchets/hawks as it does to knives. Make one that will out perform all the others. Its just that simple, thats what I want.
If we can stay focused on the design with Ookami and Mike, we will probably have a design in 6 months. Production depends on the capacity of the US factory as well as our other makers.
Awesome! I am soooo down with a Spyderco tactical hawk, I will be buying one. Very interested to see your take on ergonomics, function, and materials compared to the existing hawks on the market. Really, its very exciting since I'm hawk fan :cool:
If I may make one suggestion, from my experience using a VTAC tomahawk and playing with other spiked hawks, is please include a separate mini-sheath for covering the spike end when using the axe head.
The spike end is very useful, especially when it comes to dealing with metals and concrete, but can be quite dangerous to the user when using the axe, because the spike can potentially nail you on the back swing. This nearly happened to me when I was breaking down some built in shelving units with my VTAC.
So, a small kydex spike sheath/condom would allow the inclusion of a spike, while maximizing operator safety. I plan on having one made for my VTAC soon, but would like to see it as a factory option if possible on the fighting Spyder hawk.
But, regardless, I am thrilled about this and will be following this thread closely.
Thanx Mark, We would like all of the suggestions we can get, especially when comparing to other existing hawks. What do yo like? What don't you like? What would improve and how? What materials are preferred?
Thank you Sal for listening to our suggestions! Its an incredibly rare trait in a company, and personally it is one of the things I most enjoy about being a Spyderco fan.
As far as the design of the hawk, the first two tips I would offer is weight and length. Even the 1lb VTAC can be surprisingly slow to recover from due tot he head heavy nature of the hawk. I'm in decent shape but by no means the level of fitness of say a military hawk user, so they may be able to recover more quickly, but for me I would like the hawk to be as light as possible, or at least very well balanced, (perhaps with a counter weight in the handle like a large bowie?)
For a fighting hawk, under 1.5 lbs in my book is critical, and under a 1lb would be amazing. My dream would be a hawk with the balance of the Rock Salt, which is a big but very alive blade in the hand.
The second is length. My VTAC is 14", which is just a bit too short for my liking. But, the standard 18" hawk is too large for a messenger bag or small backpack, so I think 16" is just about ideal- 4" of grip and a foot of reach, and can fit in a 17" laptop bag.
The real issue for the design are the unanswered questions:
1. Is the hawk strictly for fighting, or is to be a multi purpose, "anti-leatherman" of destruction? If its just for fighting then some really cool things in terms of narrowness and weight can be done, but if it needs to tough enough for use against steel and concrete, then the hawk will have to be more conventional. But this one question is really the fork in the road in term of design path.
2. Will it be a polymer handle design ala VTAC, or will it be a one piece design ala RMJ? Polymer is much lighter, cheaper, and non conductive, while the one piece construction offers the ability to integrate a prybar into the design. Personally I'm happy either way and have no preference.
If its a strictly fighting hawk, I think an integral, 4mm stock hawk of 1095 (or similarly medium price, high durability steel) with g10 handles, 16" long, weighing in under 1lb would be great. The axe front would be a sharp convex edge with very deep, shaving sharp beard, with the spike being a duller, sturdy spike for harder use (I think a knife edged spike would be too dangerous to the user, personally.) Ideally the hawk would be under 1lb, and balanced like a large bowie, so it could gain tremendous velocity at the head (like a fly swatter) while remaining manageable and fast to recover from.
My preference would be for a two piece kydex sheath, so one edge could be covered while the other is in use, designed with the axe sheath being the point of attachment to belts/molle webbing. So with a quick yank the primary fighting edge could be exposed, while the utility spike would be covered to prevent injury to the user or nearby team mates.
Ok, wow, didn't intend to write such a long response, hopefully some of that will be useful.
I'm all for hawks for camping purposes. I love them. I currently don't have a hawk, but used to use an old-school wooden-handled hawk.
I simply ask you make sure one of them is throwable, cause throwing hawks is hours of fun while camping.
"Nothing is so fatal to the progress of the human mind as to suppose that our views of science are ultimate; that there are no mysteries in nature; that our triumphs are complete, and that there are no new worlds to conquer."
Sir Humphry Davy
AY Mark some good suggestions there I would like to make a few of my own from my experience with tactical hawks. Steel: There is nothing wrong with a Hawk being 1095 but I would prefer something on the order of Drop Forge 1060 with an RC around 54
Handle: I think Spyderco could really do that handle in textured FRN with slight grooves machines in to accommodate either O-rings on the handle. as in Emerson's New Hawk or rubber sleeves that could be slipped over or inserted into the hawks handle at certain sections...The purpose here being retention...I'm all for throwing hawks, that is definitely hours of fun, but when we talk of a tactical hawk for SD, we won't be throwing that weapon, so it's got to be all about retention in hand. Also to better aid in that area an oval shape designed handle is preferred. Just a side note the back spike on a hawk has many advantages when it comes to fighting, ie Hooking and Trapping etc. that being said, if you plan on using your hawk to be basically a recreational thrower, if you are not an expert at throwing hawks, you very well might stab yourself in the back with the spike when throwing the hawk. Beginning hawk throwers should not use a hawk with a back spike to learn how to throw. There I said it!...I'm talking more in the style of a tactical hawk that can used by Military personnel amongst others for fighting at CQC. That means not a thrower. I think the overall weight should be about one pound...Enough weight to deliver sufficient force to the head anything lighter (while it might be easy to carry along for your next hiking or camping trek) is not going to be able to generate a fair amount of force just on weight factor alone to not only the head but also to the butt of the handle The butt of the handle is another hawk device striking surface at close range...Think of it this way...It would be akin to using a heavy head hammer, when it would come down to using the butt of the handle for strikes just because of the weight distribution, the strikes with the much much lighter hawk and butt handle would become mostly ineffective. So what I'm saying is you need some weight in the butt end of the handle to use it effectively for SD considering all the techniques that one can do with that end of the hawk. This would also make the hawk better balanced and recovery time after a missed strike would be much quicker. If Spyderco choose not to go with o-rings or rubberized inserts, then I would whole heartily suggest flaring the steel and butt end of the hawk's handle a little wider at the butt end then the rest of the oval shaft. This would factor in the bottom weight needed and also aid with retention, as a hawk wielder will normally slide his grip up and down the shaft for different distances in fighting and hawks fighters are also fond of rotating the handle in hand to present different striking surfaces ie. (switches from spike to blade edge). In the handle length I would like to see 14" to 15 1/2". I think that would be most practical.
I'm thinking blade thickness right around .200 stock and Head length being at 7 3/4" , with a cutting edge of 2 7/8"- 3".
I would like to see a set up for a sheath, like in the link below, either a single hawk shoulder holster or a double holster hawk and off side fixed blade holster set up. http://www.survivalsheath.com/sheaths/index.htm
Ideally the sheath could be be detachable, with rubberized attachment loops or g-clip (or the like) for belt waist carry. Another option would be to think of a design for a side slip release, where the holstered opened on the side, either with spring pressure or wired pressure, in other words the user would just grab the handle of his hawk and the follow through of drawing the hawks would allow the head to slide and slip through the side opening in the sheath (Clearing Kydex) in the arcing motion of the draw.......Doc :D
"Always Judge a man by the way he treats someone who could be of no possible use to him"
Definitely sounds like the tactical hawk is covered...
Love to hear more from a traditional side of things too as that would be more where my interests would lie. I have only handled a couple and so my preferences are based on that limited experience. But I like the head of this hawk http://www.windriverhistory.org/exhibit ... arts9.html which is traditional though has a very long haft. I think that from what I have seen, I actually tend to prefer more of the "trade" axe style, rather than the more traditional native styles.
DeathBySnooSnoo wrote:Definitely sounds like the tactical hawk is covered...
Love to hear more from a traditional side of things too as that would be more where my interests would lie. I have only handled a couple and so my preferences are based on that limited experience. But I like the head of this hawk http://www.windriverhistory.org/exhibit ... arts9.html which is traditional though has a very long haft. I think that from what I have seen, I actually tend to prefer more of the "trade" axe style, rather than the more traditional native styles.
Come on SnooSnoo, we all know you just want to smoke that thing!...Doc :p
"Always Judge a man by the way he treats someone who could be of no possible use to him"
Dr. Snubnose wrote:Come on SnooSnoo, we all know you just want to smoke that thing!...Doc :p
Ha Ha Ha...that might have been the case when I was younger, these days not so much. Though if the Spydie hawk had a pipe, I might have to give it at least a test drive. :D :D :p
I too would like to see/own a Spyderco Tomahawk! This is an official bump.
My preference would be a hawk with a spike, just because it gives you the option of piercing thick material/skulls.
As I read through the thread, I noticed there was an idea to release two hawks, one as a MBC hawk, and the other, a utility hawk.
Sal, how feasible is a solid G-10 handle? It wouldn't require that much machining if kept simple, and, AFAIK, G-10 is quite inexpensive, and would not necessitate an expensive mould like FRN.
I don't know what kind of shock G-10 can withstand though, but, so far, my vote is a G-10 handle!
