Spyderco Mule Team MT11P - M390

[dsmegst]

Got them yesterday.

:) be careful with em... One of the blade tips split the plastic guard and almost through the box.

[gus88]

:eek: :eek: awesome!

[SuperFist]

On my new Mule Team MT11P M390 the top edges of the blade are almost as sharp as the blade itself.
It's dangerous.

Sf.

[VG-10]

My new MT11P in M390 is no where near as sharp as my MT08P in Super Blue.

MT11P- M390 Mule Team
“…and the blade steel can be polished to a mirror-like finish.”

Spyderco should have done that. ^^^

[gus88]

yeah i got mine yesterday and i am really in love with it
looks great with natural g10 scales on it :cool:

but i agree mine was not screaming sharp as some claim. wouldnt cut paper. few swipes over my fine diamond stone thought and it is really nice now. ill have to really work on it though when i have some free time.

maybe its just my luck but i never seem to get scary sharp blades from the factory as some people claim :confused:

[Phil Wilson]

All these high vanadium, high chrome high alloy steels like M390 and CPM S110V and CPM 90V are somewhat sluggish in the heat treat. It takes a high temperature, a very quick initial quench and a long LN2 cryo to get at least a value of RC 62 as quenched. Tempering at 375 is necessary to get some stress relief and ductility. 375 will drop the hardness at least one point so a hardness of 61 is pretty much on the high end of what can be expected with the best of processes and equipment. Consider also a plus or minus one point precision on hardness testing and it turns out that 59/60 is a very good target to shoot for. I have pushed M390 to 63 by using the high end temper where there is a little hardness bump due to secondary carbide precipitation. This is however a kind of hit or miss deal since the error range on typical thermocouples is about 3% at temperature. This means there could be a temperature control error of 30 degress and that is enough to miss the hardness bump. Steel companies caution that at this high end temper some corrosion resistance and toughness will be lost. So the low end temper is the most forgiving overall and the most conservative target.
This is a lot of tech stuff but wanted to put into perspective what it is like to heat treat these steels. Keep in mind I do one blade at a time, can check the hardness throughout the process and make adjustments if needed. If Spyderco were to do it like I do the Mules would probably cost $300 each. Yes edge holding is better at higher hardness but the tradeoff is ductility. Again I have the luxury of knowing who gets my knives and I can emphasize that there are some things you can’t do with a very thin hard edge. M390 is very fine grained and tough but there are practical limits to how far you can push blades that are optimized for specific use. Edge holding on M390 at 60 is up there with the best and there has been some work done by Bohler-Uddenholm using the CATRA testing to show this. I think that maybe BUC will also tweak M390 a bit to make it pop more in heat treat. After all they are learning some as well –yes they are interested in our feedback- and this steel was developed initially for a different purpose than knife blades. In MHO if Spyderco can furnish hundreds of test blades (Mules) at RC 59/60 for the general public to evaluate we are getting a great deal. There is a learning curve with all these specialty steels and as time goes on I will bet that the hardness can be edged up (pun) over time and their production knives will be more like 60,61 That is where CPM S90V is now with Spyderco and I am impressed with that since it is even more of a challenge to heat treat than M390!
Phil

[rodloos]

Phil, Thanks for taking the time to participate here and give your input.

And I am *really* looking forward to when your South Fork collaboration with Spyderco is released :) .

[VG-10]

yeah i got mine yesterday and i am really in love with it
looks great with natural g10 scales on it :cool:

but i agree mine was not screaming sharp as some claim. wouldnt cut paper. few swipes over my fine diamond stone thought and it is really nice now. ill have to really work on it though when i have some free time.

maybe its just my luck but i never seem to get scary sharp blades from the factory as some people claim :confused:

Hey gus, the only PE Spyderco I own that came scary sharp from the factory is my MT08P Super Blue Mule. I know that a Caly 3.5 with an Aogami Super Blue steel blade is supposedly coming out soon, so if you want a scary sharp blade I would be willing to bet that the Super Blue Caly will fit the bill. :spyder:

[DeathBySnooSnoo]

Phil,

Thanks very much for all that info. I find it all very interesting and having insight into the specific processes is something that I would like to know more of for all these steels.

[usmc1371]

I just orderd one and can't wait to use it next to the S90V mule that has been outstanding. The S90V has been my hunting blade of choice for the last couple years and has gutted and skinned over a doven deer and elk and every time I am blown away at how well it just keeps cutting. I have a new super blue and now the M390 on the way so with any luck I will be taking apart a mule deer buck and a bull elk.
I have a zdp-189 mule but I have been afraid to use it for gutting and skinning, I don't wan't to break it and it sounds like fine crystral when you flick it with a finger nail.

[mongatu]

I just ordered one too! My first Mule. Appreciate the opportunity to try this steel. Making a handle for it should be an interesting project.

(I was kind of disappointed by the exorbitant $15 "flat rate" shipping fee for just mailing it by USPS to Hawaii, which costs no more than mailing something from Colorado to NY or California. So many vendors charge excessive shipping fees to Hawaii (and Alaska) w/o justification, imo, since the actual cost of shipping by USPS is very reasonable. Was sorry to see Spyderco be included in this group.)

[cckw]

I just ordered one too! My first Mule. Appreciate the opportunity to try this steel. Making a handle for it should be an interesting project.

(I was kind of disappointed by the exorbitant $15 "flat rate" shipping fee for just mailing it by USPS to Hawaii, which costs no more than mailing something from Colorado to NY or California. So many vendors charge excessive shipping fees to Hawaii (and Alaska) w/o justification, imo, since the actual cost of shipping by USPS is very reasonable. Was sorry to see Spyderco be included in this group.)

should have bought 2 and got free shipping, I did :)

[mongatu]

should have bought 2 and got free shipping, I did :)

That's yet another point of unfair discrimination. . . , they don't offer the free shipping outside of the continental US, i.e., not to Hawaii, so that option was not available to me even if I did buy two. So buying two would still have cost the $15 flat fee for shipping. But thanks for the suggestion anyway.

[Kev-Man]

I just ordered one too! My first Mule. Appreciate the opportunity to try this steel. Making a handle for it should be an interesting project.

(I was kind of disappointed by the exorbitant $15 "flat rate" shipping fee for just mailing it by USPS to Hawaii, which costs no more than mailing something from Colorado to NY or California. So many vendors charge excessive shipping fees to Hawaii (and Alaska) w/o justification, imo, since the actual cost of shipping by USPS is very reasonable. Was sorry to see Spyderco be included in this group.)

I guess its the price we pay to live in paradise.

Because the Super Blue took a while to sell out I held off on purchasing the Cobalt Special. I took a gamble and it worked. Picked up the COS and the M390 saved on shipping.

Kev.

[Donut]

I've been carrying my recently purchased MPR for a few days and at BM's hardness, M390 seems very similar to VG-10 (sharpening and wear) with maybe 10% more edge holding. It is a fine grained steel.

Maybe my experience is wrong, but that is what I am seeing.

I might not be letting my edge wear down enough to see the performance difference. I try to keep the edge very sharp and have had to touch it up twice this week with minimal cutting. It loses its initial sharp edge pretty quick like most steels.

[jabba359]

Well, I saw that Spyderco was down to only a few Cobalt Specials remaining, so I put in my order for one of those and the M390. Too bad I'll be out of town when it shows up. I guess if I've waited this long to get the Cobalt, then I can wait a couple extra days.

[cckw]

That's yet another point of unfair discrimination. . . , they don't offer the free shipping outside of the continental US, i.e., not to Hawaii, so that option was not available to me even if I did buy two. So buying two would still have cost the $15 flat fee for shipping. But thanks for the suggestion anyway.

Some company's personnel don't have/take time to learn the options because the don't know/care/have time. Who knows why you get shafted when most of get free postage (ohh did I remind you of that again :) ) But even I know that a USPS a medium flat rate box is like $8 to anywhere in 50 states. and the boxes are provided free by the PO on top of that. maybe it's just jealousy ! I still have cut anything with mine, have you?

[mongatu]

I haven't cut anything because it hasn't been delivered yet. :)

[MCM]

Thank you Phil for taking the time in writing this up.
Am very interested to see how far we get to go with this steel.
Have several knifes in M390, but all from the same Co.
Looking forward to a Millie in this steel to EDC so I can really put it to the test.

Thanks again!
MCM

(See post 55 in this thread)

All these high vanadium, high chrome high alloy steels like M390 and CPM S110V and CPM 90V are somewhat sluggish in the heat treat. It takes a high temperature, a very quick initial quench and a long LN2 cryo to get at least a value of RC 62 as quenched. Tempering at 375 is necessary to get some stress relief and ductility. 375 will drop the hardness at least one point so a hardness of 61 is pretty much on the high end of what can be expected with the best of processes and equipment. Consider also a plus or minus one point precision on hardness testing and it turns out that 59/60 is a very good target to shoot for. I have pushed M390 to 63 by using the high end temper where there is a little hardness bump due to secondary carbide precipitation. This is however a kind of hit or miss deal since the error range on typical thermocouples is about 3% at temperature. This means there could be a temperature control error of 30 degress and that is enough to miss the hardness bump. Steel companies caution that at this high end temper some corrosion resistance and toughness will be lost. So the low end temper is the most forgiving overall and the most conservative target.
This is a lot of tech stuff but wanted to put into perspective what it is like to heat treat these steels. Keep in mind I do one blade at a time, can check the hardness throughout the process and make adjustments if needed. If Spyderco were to do it like I do the Mules would probably cost $300 each. Yes edge holding is better at higher hardness but the tradeoff is ductility. Again I have the luxury of knowing who gets my knives and I can emphasize that there are some things you can’t do with a very thin hard edge. M390 is very fine grained and tough but there are practical limits to how far you can push blades that are optimized for specific use. Edge holding on M390 at 60 is up there with the best and there has been some work done by Bohler-Uddenholm using the CATRA testing to show this. I think that maybe BUC will also tweak M390 a bit to make it pop more in heat treat. After all they are learning some as well –yes they are interested in our feedback- and this steel was developed initially for a different purpose than knife blades. In MHO if Spyderco can furnish hundreds of test blades (Mules) at RC 59/60 for the general public to evaluate we are getting a great deal. There is a learning curve with all these specialty steels and as time goes on I will bet that the hardness can be edged up (pun) over time and their production knives will be more like 60,61 That is where CPM S90V is now with Spyderco and I am impressed with that since it is even more of a challenge to heat treat than M390!
Phil

[mongatu]

Well my M390 mule and Halpern Titanium limited edition G10 scales both arrived today. Mule looks great. Scales fit and look great. Made a temporary sheath for it out of cardboard and tape. Touched up the edge on the Sharpmaker (30 degree slots only) and got it very sharp. I can tell by the way it touched up that edge retention should be excellent (even at this hardness). I cut up a bunch of cardboard and sliced a lot of paper testing the edge but can't say I've given it a real work out yet. But I'm very pleased with the edge taking and retention I've seen so far. I'm liking this M390 mule a lot and hope to see this steel in more Spyderco knives (especially a Para 2 sprint).