Sal, anyone, my thoughts on finger choils....

[JimP]

....are probably not worth reading, but here they are anyway :p .

I love finger choils! they make a knife feel more secure in the hand and give a feeling of accuracy being closer to the cutting edge, more feed back or something...

I have noticed that just about all of the Spydies that have a finger choil are of the 50/50 variety(thumb overlaps fore finger by ><1/4 in) which gives you a feeling of pinching behind the blade and of a little less power in your grip, with less inclination for the handle to be forced into your palm(except the Para 2).

However with the 75/25 finger choil of the GB (thumb overlaps fore finger by><1/2 in) it gives you that inclination to force the handle into your palm and makes my thumb and fore finger sit in a more natural position, which gives them more leverage and a feeling of power.

Anywho, my conclusion seems to be that if my knives with finger choils had a 75/25 setup their ergo's would be improved (for my hands at least :D ) and would have the added bonus of an extra 1/4 inch or so of cutting edge.

I'm no knife designer so please don't take any of this as an insult, I will probably be laughed off the forum anyway, but I am interested if this has been played with and quite simply wasn't as good, or would it even fit in with the beautiful flush look of your knives when closed?(which for me adds a lot to the appeal of your designs:cool :)

An example of what the heck I am talking about-

[Sequimite]

The advanced thumb position is something I really like.

I've been thinking lately that choils would be more effective if they narrowed as they approached the plunge line. That way if I'm cutting an apple or something where I need the extra length I would get a better cut. There may of course be some safety issues to this approach.

[The Deacon]

Interesting concept. One appeal of the 50/50 choil, at least to me, is that the most knives that have it tend to look smooth and "finished" when closed as well as when open. Many other designs leave a hump of tang exposed when closed. Not sure how easy that would be to accomplish with a different ratio, but I'm not a knife designer either.

[Evil D]

Seems like you're trading handle/grip area for blade/edge length. I'm not sure the ergos would be any different beyond that.

[DeathBySnooSnoo]

I agree...and disagree. I really feel that the choil is overused and oversized in many knives. Take the Manix 2 for example, if you moved up the position for the first finger to where the back half of the choil is now, you would have basically the same grip and control as you would using the choil, but you would gain about 1/3 of an inch in blade length. I can't see how that could ever be a bad thing to do to the Manix.
I think that it might be a lot harder to work with a 75/25 choil in some knives as it would likely end up with adding extra length to the handle. And especially with Spyderco, that is something that we don't need.
That is one reason I love the Stretch so much, the choil is there, but is shallow and I get pretty much the same grip and control without needing the choil, and yet the handle to blade ratio is pretty much perfect.

[dbcad]

I appreciate choils and the thoughts of the OP. It seems the apropriate proportion would depend on the geometry of the knife??
Does this grip conform with your criteria???(I'm another guitar picker)

With this grip I seem to catch the center of balance in the blade :)

[Stuart Ackerman]

I was not a fan of choils...until I owned two UKPKs...and I agree with the thread starter...
More usable blade would be better, but the closed design is altered a tad...

[phaust]

I like the drawing version myself. I do think Spyderco sacrifices blade to handle ratio a bit more than I'd like. Even some models without 50/50 choils have large areas between handle and the start of the edge. On the other hand, some, like the Tenacious line, are great.

[.357 mag]

I'm hit or miss. I'm two favorite spyderco's don't have them but the best feeling spyderco I've held ( caly 3.5) has it. I guess it works with some and not with others.

[DeathBySnooSnoo]

I think that the choils work extremely well on the nonlocking knives. I have a ukpk, an Urban and a Terzuola and think that they are all really great. And there are a few other designs where they really seem to fit and work well, I really like my native 4 with the choil. But in many I think that it is a waste of blade or makes the handle too long. The manix, the para2...both could be tweaked a bit and made so much better.

now don't get me wrong, I own and use those knives, but I think that they would be far better with some choil adjustment.

[SolidState]

I've been playing with a design involving a very large choil, and I can say that it is definitely challenging. It is easier with certain locking styles than with others. Also, the way stopping mechanisms work has a lot to do with what you can do with a choil, and make it work. It's really an intricate play between the pivot and the stopping mechanism which may or may not be part of the choil itself.

[insaneinmate]

I never use the choils on my spyderco's. Like in that rock salt picture above, I really am not comfortable with my thumb positioned behind my pointer finger. There is a lot less control for me and less power. Also the bottom forward choils that spyderco tends to create are too small for thick fingers. Something that i really enjoy and have a very comfortable grip when chocking up on is the SnG or SmF. The forward choils are much larger in diameter and your thumb can move forward.

I have not been able to handle either a super Leaf/Hawk for their larger forward choil, or an ed schempp design. Though on the schempp designs, your thumb still cannot overlap your pointer.

I still like having them on my spydies for the options though. So I am not complaining :spyder:

[JimP]

Thanks for all the feedback, everyone has made some very valid points, there certainly would be some nutting out in terms of pivot to stop pin to choil to blade tang relationship, I tried playing with it and even with the slightest tweak of any of these elements change the opened and closed looks of the knife.

Also the problem of having to alter the length of the grip behind the choil may be a hard one to get around.

As the Deacon mentioned, gaining a preferred ratio wouldn't be as appealing if the over all look was compromised. There is just something very satisfying about a knife that is seamless in both open and closed positions.

I guess in the end this is where the fertile minds of Sal and Eric come into play :D I've got nothing but crapy drawings and no real solutions :o .

[gus88]

i love love love the choils.
although i dont use them all the time, they are all very well fitting.

however i agree i like the "thumb in front of finger" positioning
in fact i was just telling a friend about this a few hours ago

on my superleaf,the finger is in front of the thumb, and while comfortable, does not inspire confidence quite like the "75/25" as you call it

and on a knife like the dragonfly, i dont see how you cant use it. man, the choil on the dfly is probably my favorite. the whole knife dissapears in your hand except for the blade :D :D :D
good post!!!

[Teddy Thompson]

Might just be coincidence but 9 out of my top 10 Spyderco models have 50/50 choils and the other one is a fixed blade. :D But I will also say that not all 50/50 choils work for me. The Manix is one that doesn't, the R2 is another. I attribute that to the finger divider in the grip area, not to the choil since both of them share that feature while none of the choiled models I like have it.

[Dr. Snubnose]

I appreciate choils and the thoughts of the OP. It seems the apropriate proportion would depend on the geometry of the knife??
Does this grip conform with your criteria???(I'm another guitar picker)

With this grip I seem to catch the center of balance in the blade :)

+1 on the concept of balance in the Rock Salt's Choil....I have much more control in tactical fighting with this configuration...most choils I can live without but on the Rock Salt it's a big plus when it come to defensive fighting.....Probably wouldn't like this knife so much if it wasn't there...This is one reason I like sub-hilt fighters in a defensive FB ...no choil but the balance point is the right one and protection of the not slipping onto the blade on thrusting motions is a big plus....Doc :D

[avoidspam]

I also love the choil balance on the UKPK and the caly 3. Ergonomically the Sage 2 doesn't work as well for me because I find the finger choil too deep (one of the reasons I've steered clear of the Manix). I also think the distance between the top and bottom choils on the UKPK/caly is perfect for controlled work which brings me onto the Stretch. I tend to use a knife in the saber grip a lot. Holding the Stretch behind the choils in this grip i feel divorced from the blade. The finger choil on the Stretch comes lower than the other finger positions, making the saber grip with your forefinger in the choil feel strange. Again with the UKPK and the Caly the finger choil is level with the other fingers, perfect! :D

[Stuart Ackerman]

Jim, I did an Autocad mockup of your idea, and the hole does not line up well in the closed position...but that does not mean that you should stop the ideas process...
There is potential, and I might have a wee play around with some ideas I have had, and shift the choil to gain blade length, and an effective opening and closing sequence...

[sal]

Hi JimP.

Interesting thead. I wonder how many customers of "other knife companies" speculate design on such a deep level?

Folders are more complicated than fixed blades, but fixed blades have their own issues as well. Forces are different, control of larger blades, function of the blade (eg; self defense, camp chores, food prep, etc.).

As mentioned, the balance on folders is more difficult that it might appear. Especially when one considers the pivot position, the pivot hole distance, the locations of all of the related points, the arc of the opening, hole size, etc.

Moving something 1mm changes everything.

Also, we must keep in mind the myriad of differences in customer preferences; Size of blade, hand sizes, thickness and width, blade/handle ratios, edge/handle ratios, etc.

sal

[JimP]

Hey zackerty, that's really cool, all I've had is my imagination and drawing. If I had Autocad I might be really dangerous :p . I would love to see your results!


Thanks Sal for chiming in. There's no doubt that when I started playing with the already mentioned elements, things started to get complicated very quickly.

I think that because Syderco's designs are typically visually exciting and usually the result of evolution through the C.Q.I. process it encourages such deep analysis of your designs by your loyal customers :spyder: :cool: .

The fact that you entertain any of our ideas and respond to them, even if they're a little crazy is what sets you apart from these "other knife companies" and helps keep things interesting in the knife world.

After all the analysis is done I think it helps everyone appreciate the effort that goes into your existing designs and make informed decisions on our next purchase's...because that's what we are all looking forward to, right :D . Thanks again!