Question about CATRA machines

[pleeho]

Of course you would probably need permission from said manufacturers of the products you test to publish them in a book sold for profit

Getting "permission to test" or such from manufacturers would compromise the integrity of such studies. In the same way that Consumer Reports insist on purchasing their tested samples themselves so that no influence is exerted on their testing methods and results. I'm sure there might be manufacturers who would be unhappy with comparisons, but as long as the knives are purchased by end-users for no purpose than to share objective results, there would be no basis for any legal action. This is not libel if a scientific method is constructed to attempt to communicate an apparent objective truth. Prevention of such communication/publication would be a violation of the the First Amendment (the "freedom of press" clause).

[jabba359]

I'd be interesting in seeing the results you would get from CATRA tests. Not interested enough to buy a book, but interested nonetheless. For me, the best tests are the subjective ones, as they better reflect every day use. When I would read the manilla rope threads, I always came away thinking that it didn't really apply to me as I don't spend all day cutting manilla rope. But when people like The Mastiff chime in, with all the subjective knowledge from years of experience using different steels, I'm all ears. CATRA doesn't tell me anything about corrosion resistance, sharpening ease, or whether the steel has a smooth or toothy edge. But combine the objective CATRA results with real-world subjective experience, and you get a more well-rounded picture.

It's kind of like cars. Car and Driver can tell me that the 2011 Camaro has more horsepower, better 1/4 mile times, higher torque output, superior lateral grip, better gas mileage, and crazy shorter braking distances than my '68, but that's only half the story. The 2011 just doesn't put a grin on my face the same way as jumping into my old '68 Camaro and taking it out for a spin does. I've never dyno'd my car, or timed it at a track, or measured my braking distances, but I can subjectively tell you, it's way more fun to drive. Sure it loses the number game, but I'd take it over the new one any day (unless it's a long, multi-hour drive, as the 2011 easily wins in comfort and convenience!)

[Blerv]

CATRA tests edge-holding which is only one factor of blade steel. If there was a "best blade steel" the others wouldn't exist.

From my recollection of past threads Sal said a serrated (done right) typically cuts in this test twice as long as plain edge. Serrated H1 the gap widens from about AUS8 to beating anything they had tested to date (Jumpmaster) when they made the statement (about a year ago). Still, people haven't stopped buying VG10 knives in plain edge.

People love data. It's competition on the basic level and fulfilling figuring out the real numbers. Still unless your planning on manufacturing changes to your own facility it's not very valuable data.

Cost, corrosion resistance, hardness, strength, wear resistance and everything that doesn't fit in a specific box makes up a blade steel. Throw in country of build and some requests are impossible. There are many steels being tested by the industry most (if all) of us have never heard of. Carpenter was off my radar until almost 2 years ago, now it's the Chevy to Crucible's Ford. Knife snobs are trendy, luckily Sal and Co are the biggest snobs around with some of the most wicked HT's and grinds.

I'll just pick from their offerings. We applaud your research and quest though. Still, just know many of us will often pick "inferior" steels based on model availability, price, other perks, and unsubstantiated opinions :) . CPM-S30v doesn't make my heart race but put it in a Taichung or Golden knife and you have my attention! Lol.

[jimnolimit]

All Good points, but for the end-user, the questions would center around the blade steel tolerances, deviations, performance range for given steels - for knives bought randomly on the free market. Questions surrounding the range of available steels from the inexpensive 440s to the zdp-189, s90v etc. We're all spending hundreds, even thousands on knives on the assumption that the premium steels are worth the premium prices. But what in actual performance measures is the difference in the steels? If a sampling of s90v edges from a same manufacturer sharpened on the same machine to the same angles and geometries gives you lets say twice the cutting endurance and sharpness preservation than a sampling of s35vn edges of the same specifications from the same manufacturer, is it thereby worth paying twice the price for that knife? It's assumed that you can't control the heat-treat and manufacturing defects of a given knife, but that's why we buy knives from reputable dealers in the first place, and that's why you need several copies of each knife model, and also several manufacturers' heat-treat/model of a specific blade steel.

We've seen all the unfruitful bickering around individual rope-cutting efforts to try to get at the core questions on steels. The problem is results based on subjective scoring, rating of "average push-cutting poundage" onto some material is all basically experiential, anecdotal opinions. It's the classic "Your Mileage May Vary" results which are useful only in a gestalt kind of way and only if you believe it.

Having a CATRA machine and spending lots of additional money and time testing batches of specific knives with specific steels and collating the results would make a very useful (and possibly profitable) book that I think many publishers would be happy to produce. I'm sure there would be lots of controversy again, and the results would be endlessly criticized by all, but controlling as many variables that an end-user can control would be a great first step toward trying to get at some really useful results.

How much would such a contribution to the general knowledge of the world be worth? Perhaps nothing. But what if one is rewarded with publication, academic benefits, monetary profits from machine rental and book deals? Also I suspect one could sell the CATRA machine to some cutlery business at a discount price after all is completed and done.

to CATRA test, all the blades geometries would have to be the same. if you want to spend the time and money to buy large quantities of the same knife just to test them, more power to you. but the problem is you wouldn't be able to accurately test one knife model or company from another. so what good are the results? example: you test 20 knives, model (B), from company (A) and all were within 5%. all that says is that the batch you tested was within "specs" and company (A)'s heat treat is pretty consistent.

just because a blade does well cutting cards, while locked in a machine, doesn't mean it will do the same in the real world. IMO CATRA is not meant to test knives, it's meant to test steels and heat treats. it is useful in making decisions on what to use a steel for and in planning the heat treat.

as far as renting out the machine, that's a so-so idea IMO. people who are going to do testing probably need more than just a guy with a machine. lets say a steel company wants to test some new steel formulas. steel companies don't make "standard" blades and probably don't have large amounts of CATRA data using a "standard" blade shape to compare it to. heat treating also comes into play. so the steel company would have to do everything? they would need to have their own testing department minus a CATRA and want to rent yours? with a company like spyderco, a steel company could send the bars of steel they want tested plus initial heat treat instructions and spyderco can do the rest. a company like spyderco can then work with the steel company to fine tune the heat treat and make suggestions for the steel composition to achieve the desired result. im sorry for the way this is going to sound, but you would only be able to offer a machine. you would be like a rental car company, except with a CATRA machine.

there is never going to be a test that is fully agreed upon because people don't use their knives under exact laboratory conditions. people use their knives on so many different types of materials, in many ways and in many environments. a person cutting rope on a farm will get different results from a person cutting fish at the lake and both will get different results from a guy cutting boxes at a supermarket. CATRA is one very specific test where the blade is locked into a jig so it only tests edge abrasion/retention while cutting silica impregnated cards. what happens when a person using the knife moves his/her wrist a little while cutting? CATRA doesn't take into consideration lateral stress or a prying motion. a steel can be over-hardened a few points to increase a CATRA score, but it's real world performance might suffer.

knife steels are a puzzle and each test is a piece of the puzzle. dismissing ANY test means that you are purposely losing a piece to that puzzle.

.

[pleeho]

If I can't sell the book to knife snobs, there's nobody else to sell it to. I believe it is resistance like this that will cause the demise of progress and thus the end of the world.

[jimnolimit]

If I can't sell the book to knife snobs, there's nobody else to sell it to. I believe it is resistance like this that will cause the demise of progress and thus the end of the world.

i almost have to assume that ^ is sarcasm, it is too silly to be real.

p.s. im not here to shatter dreams, only to add some reality to them.

[chuck_roxas45]

If I can't sell the book to knife snobs, there's nobody else to sell it to. I believe it is resistance like this that will cause the demise of progress and thus the end of the world.

actually I'm just envious of your CATRA machine. :p

go ahead an buy one for world peace and environmental consciousness. :D

[pleeho]

if people like you guys have no interest in buying a book to see such results, I'd have to be utterly stupid to buy a $100,000 machine for my own knifesturbating pleasure.

[chuck_roxas45]

if people like you guys have no interest in buying a book to see such results, I'd have to be utterly stupid to buy a $100,000 machine for my own knifesturbating pleasure.

Even if we did, how many books would you need to sell to get back your 100 large?

[defenestrate]

I would be interested, but what Chuck said.

[Blerv]

if people like you guys have no interest in buying a book to see such results, I'd have to be utterly stupid to buy a $100,000 machine for my own knifesturbating pleasure.

I disagree. Most authors buy $100,000 machines to write a book to a niche audience.

[gunnut35]

I admire anyone that has the compassion to fulfill any dream of theirs but if you are doing it to make a profit you may not be satisfied. I love knives of all kinds and i would love more information on the steels used but dont want to sit down and read alot of technical information. I would rather look on line for the information.

[bada61265]

wow, just when i thought i had seen everything :rolleyes:

[jimnolimit]

if people like you guys have no interest in buying a book to see such results, I'd have to be utterly stupid to buy a $100,000 machine for my own knifesturbating pleasure.

Does a CATRA machine cost 100k?

The price of the machine would only be part of the cost. Buying the cards, acquiring all of the steel that will need to be tested, making each blade the same, plus all of the time and money that goes into making a book. For the book to be good and worth buying, it's going to take pretty large amount of money and time. You're going to have to test many different steels with the same geometry, all at different hardnesses.

a company like spyderco probably has a enough data to make a book, but why would they give away all that knowledge. That info is more than just money spent over the years, it's all the YEARS of research. It's one of the tools that helps give spyderco an "edge" in this business.

I'm not trying to crush any dreams, just trying to let you know that the road is not going to be easy and there might not be profit at the end.

[pleeho]

some people live to dream. Some people live to crush those dreams.

[chuck_roxas45]

some people live to dream. Some people live to crush those dreams.

I thought at first that you just wanted a CATRA machine just so you could do your own tests like others on the forums, albeit with more controlled variables. I realize now that you wanted to make a business of it.

In effect this thread is a sort of market research for you. So now that you have your results(of your market research) you can make your decision based on what you found out. No use blaming people for what you have discovered.

That also makes me wonder how you would react to the results of your CATRA testing if ever you had pushed through. You may have dreamt that 8Cr13Mov was the greatest steel there is and blamed the machine for crushing your dreams. :p

[Blerv]

Once again if you want accurate feedback it's important to set it up appropriately in the original post. We didn't know your intent or financials. In fact, Sal responded so I would be very happy to hear from the man himself :) .

I don't see how 50-100k is "affordable" for any private citizens unless you see money different than the rest of society. Even the rich find exotic sports cars expensive. nobody drives a $120,000ish ZR1 Corvette or ACR Viper and says, "you know, it's just a car." A CATRA machine for a private citizen wouldn't get as much eye-appeal as one of those.

As for a financial venture, go wild! I think as a business venture buying a machine that costs about as much as an All-wheel drive Mustang dynamometer is a TON of capital to tie up. If you were able to lease your services to other knife makers or offer them something that would benefit their business (ie certification) perhaps it would be a good venture. Still, your banking on small transactions going against a very large loan.

If opinions make us "assassins" than oh well. Go ahead and defuse our points or deny them...it wont hurt my feelings.

PS: The Easter Bunny isn't real. Sorry, being evil is a slippery slope.

[jimnolimit]

some people live to dream. Some people live to crush those dreams.

I'm not crushing dreams, actually I'm trying to help you. If you think that you're going to just buy a CATRA and boom, you're in business, that's not going to be the reality of the situation. You will have to put in alot of time and money. Right now, you have no experience with testing steel and metallurgy (I assume). I posed potential problems and questions that you would need to consider before you could move forward.

If a few questions and comments on an Internet forum ruined your "dreams", then you don't have much faith in your dreams and/or you weren't too serious in the first place.

[pleeho]

in all seriousness, I appreciate the input from all you gentlemen.
I'll await further discussions with Roger Hamby and see where it goes. Sounds like the data is all there anyway and it would be redundant.

[Cliff Stamp]

Does a CATRA machine cost 100k?

You can get the same results with a TI calculator and force plate if you want the same type of measurement.

Last time I checked which was about 15 years ago when I was setting up an u-grad lab this was < $100 but I was buying in bulk for units of about fifty. It will just take you a hundred times longer than a CATRA cycle, but if you have the time then you can easily generate the data.

The reason that in research that you spend so much money on systems/equipment is because :

1) you have grants and thus the money isn't the limiting factor

2) time is ALWAYS the critical factor, you have to get data as FAST as possible

You have to be able to get your results out faster because he who publishes first gets the recognition, he who publishes second is a footnote. Even when you are not researching, labour is the main cost because of the raw cost of labour is now very high.

While it seems like a lot of money, even a base technician would be expected to make more than $100 k in three years so it would make sense for CATRA (or anyone) who was doing that type of work to do it by machine than hand generate the data.

Machines also do not get sick, married, do drugs, sexually harass employees, get the "Mondays", etc. and all the other costs of dealing with people so from a business perspective, replacing people with machines is always a win-win.

To do just get one decent CATRA style run, on one blade by hand takes about 20 hours work, this means it would cost in raw labor (after all costs, taxes, workers, insurance, etc.) about $1000 if you were paying someone competent do to it by hand and reduce the data.

No company would do that, you would simply buy the machine and have it do it. But again if you are just someone interested in knives and you enjoy it as a hobby, you can easily generate it by hand, again it will just take you a VERY LONG time.

Back to the original topic, before writing the book. Why not do an extensive web survey/data collection, put it all in an e-book/pamphlet with references and sell it for a very low amount. A lot of people would likely buy something like that for $5 or so.