Question about CATRA machines

[pleeho]

I was curious, does anybody know how much it costs to purchase one of CATRA's machines that do the standard hand-held knife edge cutting tests? It looks like it should cost more than $50k, but probably less than a $1million. If we're talking something in the range of $100,000 it might be affordable for many private citizens.

[The Deacon]

I was curious, does anybody know how much it costs to purchase one of CATRA's machines that do the standard hand-held knife edge cutting tests? It looks like it should cost more than $50k, but probably less than a $1million. If we're talking something in the range of $100,000 it might be affordable for many private citizens.

Can only speak for myself, but if someone gave me $100K with the stipulation I had to spend it within 48 hours, buying a CATRA machine wouldn't be the first thing that would come to mind. Heck, it wouldn't even be the 100th. :D

Have you ever visited their website?

[chuck_roxas45]

Can only speak for myself, but if someone gave me $100K with the stipulation I had to spend it within 48 hours, buying a CATRA machine wouldn't be the first thing that would come to mind. Heck, it wouldn't even be the 100th. :D

Hahahaha. Plus 1.

[2cha]

I have an acquaintance who manages a milspec testing lab. I'll ask him where they get the machines. You could also try to contact Brad at Peter's Heat Treating. Another option is to find one used. With a hundred manufacturing businesses a day closing up shop and heading to the land of the unfree, the used equipment suppliers must be sitting on some.

If you have a $100k to burn on a machine that tells you how sharp something is, seems to me you can afford to send stuff off to get tested and give the balance to someone who needs it more :D (I have a list,...)

[2cha]

http://www.catra.org/index.htm

They sell a little device for measuring edge geometry and perform testing services.

[JacksonKnives]

If you have 100 large to invest, I would love to help you start up a competing corporation that would cater to individual users *and* provide certification for industrial clients...

[xavierdoc]

I see on the website they reference 24 organisations worldwide who have a Catra machine. I'm going to watch carefully for the appearance of "Pleeho" on that list. That'd be some serious bragging rights on the knife forums!

[Blerv]

Yea I recall Spyderco saying they have one of the few in the country. I certainly wouldn't be buying one if I had the money because it would be pointless bragging right and not very good ones at that.

Fully operational Boba Fett bounty hunter armor? Hmm...NOW you're cooking with gas .

[sal]

Hi Pleeho,

There are not many in use. I think you would probably have 100K into the unit by the time you get it built, shipped and training.

We use it quite a bit, but we're also steel junky's that like to do our own research.

sal

[chuck_roxas45]

Speaking for myself, I would buy knife making gear and materials before buying a CATRA machine.

[The Mastiff]

Something tells me that the CATRA instrument is just the beginning. I bet money they try to get all your money with the silica cardstock used up in the testing.

I had to buy a sign making machine ( computer & printer) to make signs at a job. The Sign making gear was only about $3-400. Where they got you was the sign tape. It was $250-350 per roll ( only 25 ft., not much at all in that situation ), only made in one place by one company for that one machine.

The sign maker was useless without their sign tape and they knew it. It was sort of like the Pentagons $550 hammer.

[Pinetreebbs]

As a Spyderco knife aficionado I have a CATRA machine. Even better, it is operated by a well trained crew of world's best knife experts.

[BAL]

You can get a catra at Walmart for much less than 100K. They are over in the pet supply section with the dogtra's. They are around 5 bucks. The ones with the little happy face sticker are cheaper.

[BAL]

You can get a catra at Walmart for much less than 100K. They are over in the pet supply section with the dogtra's. They are around 5 bucks. The ones with the little happy face sticker are cheaper.

Oh wait, my bad. Everyone is talking about CATRA Machines, NOT Cat Trays.
Well, you can't get them at Walmart in Pet supply. You have to go back to
Sporting Goods / Automotive, next to the oil filters, I think.
For a better deal, look for the little happy face sticker. They also have a new
"Match it " program that sounds sweet.

[pleeho]

It sounds like it is financially justifiable, depending on its intended purpose. An academic could potentially justify such a purchase if meaning to use it for research and publish for instance. A businessman might consider its purchase in order to offer rental to such academics also. I would think renting time on it would be quite attractive to numerous knife-makers who would otherwise balk at purchasing such a unit outright also. I don't know that a $100,000-$200,000 expense upfront could be recovered completely from such rental, but obviously Sal and others have easily recouped their costs by offering the knives with the best blades currently available, as well as slaking their lust for steel investigation. I've put in a call to catra.org and I'll see where it goes from here, but THANKS SAL for your ballpark estimate. And to those who laugh - let us see who laughs last.

[VashHash]

If you look on the endurance test page it shows a spyderco millie SE in the machine.

[Blerv]

In all defense I think the question and details surrounding it was pretty vague. Forums get asked some random questions from people with hobby basements to state universities.

If you aren't constantly testing new steels it's probably not worth the expense for the average citizen. Sure some citizens own WW1 tanks as a hobby! It's not the most logical of hobbies and frankly a WW1 tank is more useful for most.

Well funded knife makers or entrepreneurs marketing a niche? Well that's slightly different than Tom and Betty who own the Tackle, Preserves, and CATRA shop in Mayberry.

[jimnolimit]

It sounds like it is financially justifiable, depending on its intended purpose. An academic could potentially justify such a purchase if meaning to use it for research and publish for instance. A businessman might consider its purchase in order to offer rental to such academics also. I would think renting time on it would be quite attractive to numerous knife-makers who would otherwise balk at purchasing such a unit outright also. I don't know that a $100,000-$200,000 expense upfront could be recovered completely from such rental, but obviously Sal and others have easily recouped their costs by offering the knives with the best blades currently available, as well as slaking their lust for steel investigation. I've put in a call to catra.org and I'll see where it goes from here, but THANKS SAL for your ballpark estimate. And to those who laugh - let us see who laughs last.

CATRA is not the end-all-be-all of knife testing. it's just one specific type of test, using a specific test material. CATRA's benefit is in the fact that it can precisely measure that cutting. but CATRA is only really useful for testing if you can control all the other variables. for a company like spyderco, they can fully benefit from CATRA testing because they have the ability to control and measure variables like edge geometry, heat treat recipe and hardness on many different types of steel. having a CATRA machine is like having an engine dynamometer, it's a neat tool, but not very helpful if you don't have an engine building facility. even if you wanted to buy the machine to rent, you can't offer any of the other services or experience that a knife building company like spyderco can. just something you should consider.

[pleeho]

All Good points, but for the end-user, the questions would center around the blade steel tolerances, deviations, performance range for given steels - for knives bought randomly on the free market. Questions surrounding the range of available steels from the inexpensive 440s to the zdp-189, s90v etc. We're all spending hundreds, even thousands on knives on the assumption that the premium steels are worth the premium prices. But what in actual performance measures is the difference in the steels? If a sampling of s90v edges from a same manufacturer sharpened on the same machine to the same angles and geometries gives you lets say twice the cutting endurance and sharpness preservation than a sampling of s35vn edges of the same specifications from the same manufacturer, is it thereby worth paying twice the price for that knife? It's assumed that you can't control the heat-treat and manufacturing defects of a given knife, but that's why we buy knives from reputable dealers in the first place, and that's why you need several copies of each knife model, and also several manufacturers' heat-treat/model of a specific blade steel.

We've seen all the unfruitful bickering around individual rope-cutting efforts to try to get at the core questions on steels. The problem is results based on subjective scoring, rating of "average push-cutting poundage" onto some material is all basically experiential, anecdotal opinions. It's the classic "Your Mileage May Vary" results which are useful only in a gestalt kind of way and only if you believe it.

Having a CATRA machine and spending lots of additional money and time testing batches of specific knives with specific steels and collating the results would make a very useful (and possibly profitable) book that I think many publishers would be happy to produce. I'm sure there would be lots of controversy again, and the results would be endlessly criticized by all, but controlling as many variables that an end-user can control would be a great first step toward trying to get at some really useful results.

How much would such a contribution to the general knowledge of the world be worth? Perhaps nothing. But what if one is rewarded with publication, academic benefits, monetary profits from machine rental and book deals? Also I suspect one could sell the CATRA machine to some cutlery business at a discount price after all is completed and done.

[VashHash]

Of course you would probably need permission from said manufacturers of the products you test to publish them in a book sold for profit