Best edc with potential SD role blade? (poll)

[aedmband21]

My doorbell rang about 20 minutes ago and I found my new para2 sitting inside the screen door. All I can say is WOW.

[jackknifeh]

What should someone like me do when in a situation where I know the person I'm having a conflict is going to want to fight no matter what and he has a knife. If he doesn't have a knife and I do I wouldn't pull mine out.

Should a person like me (absolutely no training or knowledge at all) do? Try to defend myself with calculated dodges and ducks and offensive moves as much as possible to the best of my lack of ability? Option two would be to just go crazy, moving toward my assailant slowly and swinging my knife wildly, maybe yelling. That may throw him off to the point he will back off. Either way I'm in deep trouble if he doesn't get rattled.

Jack

[markg]

Do what is natural... Go large, go big, go loud.

[psychophipps]

I actually get a bit angry when people with experience in knife methodologies says stuff like, "Get some training or a knife is completely worthless to you defensively." Knives have been an effective defensive tool since their inception as we've certainly been killing each other over the same dumb stuff we kill each other over now since we invented the darn things. Plenty of untrained folks out there are hurting and killing people with knives right at this moment, so let's just let that oft-quoted gross misrepresentation of the facts leave our collective vocabularies.

The single hardest part of an effective martial arts methodology, let alone a knife-based one, for most people to get is what I call "The Nice Guy Syndrome". Nice guys try to avoid violent confrontation at any cost. Nice guys don't hit people first. Nice guys certainly don't go pulling a blade to use on another person.

If this "Nice Guy" is you and you can't see yourself having to do what it takes to effectively use a blade to attack someone, which is what "defending yourself with a knife" really is, then don't worry about if your EDC is "tactical" enough. It won't do you any good anyway except in the least likely of defensive scenarios, the standoff with plenty of room and time to access and deploy your weapon.

[Evil D]

I was always told if you pull a weapon in a fight, get ready to have it used on you. I wouldn't pull a knife unless i felt my LIFE was in danger, not just an *** beating.

[markg]

I actually get a bit angry when people with experience in knife methodologies says stuff like, "Get some training or a knife is completely worthless to you defensively." Knives have been an effective defensive tool since their inception as we've certainly been killing each other over the same dumb stuff we kill each other over now since we invented the darn things. Plenty of untrained folks out there are hurting and killing people with knives right at this moment, so let's just let that oft-quoted gross misrepresentation of the facts leave our collective vocabularies.

The single hardest part of an effective martial arts methodology, let alone a knife-based one, for most people to get is what I call "The Nice Guy Syndrome". Nice guys try to avoid violent confrontation at any cost. Nice guys don't hit people first. Nice guys certainly don't go pulling a blade to use on another person.

If this "Nice Guy" is you and you can't see yourself having to do what it takes to effectively use a blade to attack someone, which is what "defending yourself with a knife" really is, then don't worry about if your EDC is "tactical" enough. It won't do you any good anyway except in the least likely of defensive scenarios, the standoff with plenty of room and time to access and deploy your weapon.

You are right on your major point. "Killing" or attacking a person with a knife, really involves no training whatsoever.

However defense against a knife attack, well a person can benefit from training. For example, most of our instinctive responses do nothing. You raise your arm to block, you try to grab the knife with your hand, or you turn you back to your attacker (hard wired, good idea if attacked by a large animal, knife attack not so...) You have to train these ineffective, but natural responses, away.

Another area where training is vital, is purely "defensive" use of a knife. This would be different than simply stabbing away at an attacker. Bio-mechanical cutting is one such version of this, where cuts are made to limit or remove the ability of the attacker to hold a weapon or continue an attack. The goal is not to kill or indescribably attack an opponent, but to take away their ability to continue the fight.

And lastly, if a person wants to use a specialized knife (Karambit, Civilian, et al) Some knives might require some level of training to maximize their capacity.

I think one of the reasons we tell people to get training is a sense of perceived liability. I don't really know who I am talking to, so I will tell you to "get some training" so someone else gets to see if they are a nut and need to reported to the authorities.

I was always told if you pull a weapon in a fight, get ready to have it used on you. I wouldn't pull a knife unless i felt my LIFE was in danger, not just an *** beating.

Well saying it will be used against you is being a bit pessimistic. A good way to look at it is this... If you present a knife in a fight, and the guy has a gun that was not drawn... It will be now.

You just made a "fight" a "lethal force" encounter.

[bohica1998]

D) None of the above.

Spyderco has other designs which are far better for the SD role than the rather limited selections given.

I realize you mean 'which EDC would be the best if used as an SD knife', but honestly, if there is a possibility of a need for an SD knife to be carried, then one of the knives I carry will be one more suited for that task.

[psychophipps]

George "mercop" Mathias has an interesting way to describe unarmed and melee-based attacks as "The Law of Extension". This law states that in order to hurt someone with an unarmed or melee-based attack, you very likely need to extend your limbs and/or the weapon in your hand towards your assailant. In other words, you are purposefully driving a limb or a tool at them in order to do them harm. Even more simply, you're attacking them.

You mentioned MBC so I will use a common example of the demonstrated MBC methodology as shown on some random Spike TV show that I don't care what the title of is and on the MBC Guerrilla Video #1. The drill is against a forehand slash from the shoulder to the opposite hip, sometimes referred to as Angle 1, IIRC.

Firstly, you sway back away from the attack, effectively defending yourself. As this is happening, you have the option to extend your knife into the path of the attack you're defending yourself against, effectively attacking your assailant's striking arm in an attempt to disarm them.
Second, you can step forward and extend your weak-side arm to grasp or otherwise control the back of the assailant's striking arm. You then have the option to extend and attack the bicep-tricep area with slash from your knife in an attempt to further render your assailant non-threatening.
Finally, you have the option of thrusting the blade into your assailants leg, a blatant attack, and finishing with a comma cut or other slash to the quadriceps in an attempt to render them to slow too give chase effectively.

Not sure about you, but besides the initial defensive swaying movement, I'm seeing a whole mess of attacking in there.

I find the MBC methodology to be absolutely fantastic, so don't get me wrong. But to call any knife-based martial methodology "entirely, or even mostly, defensive", is a misrepresentation of it's purpose. No matter what you do or how you say it, the end result is purposefully finding a way to injure your assailant with an edged tool in your hand. The difference between D-Block shanking and biomechanical cutting is largely semantics as either one will do in a pinch, and be legally defensible, in a lethal force encounter.

[Evil D]

Well saying it will be used against you is being a bit pessimistic. A good way to look at it is this... If you present a knife in a fight, and the guy has a gun that was not drawn... It will be now.

You just made a "fight" a "lethal force" encounter.

Right the point is that you just changed the rules of the engagement, and you had better be the better fighter or your knife may end up in their hands and used against you.

[psychophipps]

My doorbell rang about 20 minutes ago and I found my new para2 sitting inside the screen door. All I can say is WOW.

There are few feelings better than holding a brand new knife that fits your hand well. :)

[Blerv]

Agreed Psychophipps.

There are countless of excuses people give against knife use. Truth is a person with a tool is better than that same person without one. We are better untrained flailing with a knife than our hands because proper striking is a skill too. Give a non-trained person a pen or even stick and their odds go up. Escalating the situation, having something that can used against you...rubbish. If you're resorting to weapon defense their intent of harming/killing you is already established.

I would say the less specific an ergonomic design the better for the untrained. The P'kal is still deadly in all grips for all users but a Tasman or Delica would *probably* feel more natural in hand. All are better than most makeshift tools and those are MUCH better than nothing for the average person who can't even throw a punch with steam on it.

[DaBird]

A trained person with a small knife pocket knife will prevail over an untrained person with a huge bowie every time.

I would have to say that should read " ALMOST " every time.

MANY people are killed in the US and other places by people with NO training with edged weapons every day.

That IS NOT to say FMA/Edged weapons training is bad -- its the 2nd best thing to know/have.

IMHO -- the first best thing to have is the "mind set" to be totally RUTHLESS in useing any bladed weapon in a fight.

That is what most of the "bad guys" have. And also the old " best defense is a good offense " is hard to beat.

When in my early 20s , I studied Tae Kwon Do { mainly Korean high-kicking } for about 5-6 years , then in my late 20s and early 30s studied Isshinryu Karate { mainly Japanese punching/ low kicks } for a few years -- then I got lucky and found a place that was teaching Kali/Eskrima/Arnis ---- LOVED IT !!!! --- first day in class -- I got a set of rattan sticks , padded gloves and headgear and started to learn to spar with the sticks. In FMA , almost any thing you learn with the sticks , can be done with a small/large bladed weapon.

A good "school" will also cross-train you in Pannatukan { Filipino style boxing } , Dumog/Tranka { Filipino wrestling/ground fighting } , Pananjakman {Filipino Kicking } and NOT just in stick/blade work.

I DO AGREE with BH about a Trained Fighter will beat a Untrained Fighter ALMOST every time :D

As to the "type" of blade for SD --- I say get the longest length blade that is legal to carry and one that is both capeable of a thrust as well as a slash.

[markg]

George "mercop" Mathias has an interesting way to describe unarmed and melee-based attacks as "The Law of Extension". This law states that in order to hurt someone with an unarmed or melee-based attack, you very likely need to extend your limbs and/or the weapon in your hand towards your assailant. In other words, you are purposefully driving a limb or a tool at them in order to do them harm. Even more simply, you're attacking them.

You mentioned MBC so I will use a common example of the demonstrated MBC methodology as shown on some random Spike TV show that I don't care what the title of is and on the MBC Guerrilla Video #1. The drill is against a forehand slash from the shoulder to the opposite hip, sometimes referred to as Angle 1, IIRC.

Firstly, you sway back away from the attack, effectively defending yourself. As this is happening, you have the option to extend your knife into the path of the attack you're defending yourself against, effectively attacking your assailant's striking arm in an attempt to disarm them.
Second, you can step forward and extend your weak-side arm to grasp or otherwise control the back of the assailant's striking arm. You then have the option to extend and attack the bicep-tricep area with slash from your knife in an attempt to further render your assailant non-threatening.
Finally, you have the option of thrusting the blade into your assailants leg, a blatant attack, and finishing with a comma cut or other slash to the quadriceps in an attempt to render them to slow too give chase effectively.

Not sure about you, but besides the initial defensive swaying movement, I'm seeing a whole mess of attacking in there.

I find the MBC methodology to be absolutely fantastic, so don't get me wrong. But to call any knife-based martial methodology "entirely, or even mostly, defensive", is a misrepresentation of it's purpose. No matter what you do or how you say it, the end result is purposefully finding a way to injure your assailant with an edged tool in your hand. The difference between D-Block shanking and biomechanical cutting is largely semantics as either one will do in a pinch, and be legally defensible, in a lethal force encounter.

At some point it respectfully becomes splitting hairs. A true non-violent form of "defense" would be "evasion, escape, or avoidance..." All of which, are really fantastic options, and your first choice if available.

Understanding the roots of many of the aforementioned movements, they historically targeted the neck or even major arteries, to produce incapacitation and often with the result of death to the attacker. "Defensive" in this case would imply that we are attempting to attack someone in a manner where the person is unable to continue the fight, however we have not purposely targeted areas that are lethal in nature.

In a traditional martial understanding "defensive" has nothing to do with harming or not harming an individual. It has to do with receiving or initiating an attack. One who initiates an attack is an attacker, the own who receives the attacker is the defender. If the attacker gets his but whipped in the process, that was an unfortunate non-intended consequence.

[Jordan]

Just a quick point... most of the people who are attacked with an edged implement (note that I did not say knives... included in this category would be screwdrivers, chisels, icepicks, and particularly craggy rocks :p ) are either surprised or ambushed (there is a difference). Doesn't really matter how well trained you are if someone shanks you in the kidney while you are trying to get your car keys out of your pocket. Training is not restricted to learning how to physically defend yourself in an altercation. As has been noted above, untrained people prevail all the time in physical altercations... the body knows instinctively how to handle that situation. Good training simply augments instinct. Training can also be PURELY physical instead of defensive. Your odds of surviving serious injury or escaping from an attacker increase if you are in good shape. Training can also be behavioral. Go to the grocery store and make it a point to take note of and remember as many people as you can. While in parking lots, try to memorize license plate numbers. Simple little exercises like that will eventually put you into the habit of taking note of your surroundings without effort. Situational awareness is key in any practical system of self defense.

I think that a lot of these conversations here that end up focused on self defense ignore the fact that fights are different from duels. Namely in that the first actually happens sometimes. Having a cool knife is... well... cool. Being well trained in a cool martial art is also cool. But in a fight, aggression and physical strength/endurance is what will probably win, not equipment or training. Augmenting those attributes is gonna be a whole bunch easier than learning a complicated martial art and drilling it to the point at which reaction becomes reflex (whereupon it is actually useful to you), and it will serve you just about as well.

[SQSAR]

The sharpest thing you can have on you in any confrontation , , , , is a sharp mind. Without that, the only thing you have going for you is chance.

[jimnolimit]

this thread has gone full SD. the OP asked which knife is best EDC with potential SD role. any knife that you EDC will potentially have to fill the SD role if crap hits the fan. of the OP's 3 choices, both the caly 3.5 and para 2 fit the EDC roll best. out of those two knives, i rather have the para 2 on me for "worst case scenario's".

[catamount]

If you're going to carry only one knife, the Para 2 is the most versatile all around knife of the three (or, arguably, the entire :spyder: line). It's well suited for a wide variety of tasks and situations, including last ditch SD.

[dbcad]

I've never bought knives based on tactical capability. I do understand members of law enforcement and the military might have this thought more in mind.

For me a large lum or PPT would be welcome if I ever got into this kind of predicament (probability 0.001%) I would be very happy with whatever I have. Large Lum would be nice

[FIMS]

Full sized handle, shorter stubby blade.

For that I prefer the Paramilitary 1 or 2, or the Emerson CQC7A Spearpoint andCQC14 Stubby.

[gijoe945]

I know of a man saving a lady and child from the ravage of a pit bull in Council Bluffs, Ia., with a pocket knife. As for cutting as a defense, go for any opening. preferably the eyes and run. The courts will look better upon you.
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