Very Large folder discussion

[Reject]

Folding Rock Salt. :cool:

[sal]

I'll say this one more time, then shut up about it: please make sure, if you scale up an existing design, that you pay attention to the hump. This knife should (or at least could) be comfortable in a pocket -- if it's not 2.5" wide across because of a big spyderco hump. Thin and light isn't any good if it's uncomfortable due to width, and if it's not comfortable in the pocket, no reason for it to be a folder. If you blindly scale up a blade shape, the hump scales up with it, and that's the problem. I figure Ed and Sal are too smart for that, but my OCD won't let me stop saying it.

Thanx Joe,

But we never "scale up" or "scale down" anything. They are always dedicated designs. the Endura is not a "scaled up" Delica or vice versa.

Hey Ed,

Your "San Mai" is ? I would guess 52100 & ? BTW, you can't call it "San Mai" commerically. Cold Steel has trademarked the name......yeah I know. but... :p

Whatchathink 'bout a Schempp Mule Team? Schemppiliam.

sal

[Phrenik]

I love this discussion! I am learning so much from this thread, thank you Sal and Ed you both are truly people of high caliber and intelligence in this field of work. Albeit that goes without saying. Regarding what Ed was stating, if that is ok with your Mr.Schempp, that I call you by your first name. After saying it repeatedly, it does take a bit of work vs using "Ed". Sorry for my laziness :D

Could an Ed + Sal induced Manix sprint run be in the works?

I already enjoy the manix 2 greatly, when I still had it. [Had to sell MANY knives in order to pay recent bills, and my brother ran into money trouble, not to mention my disease doesn't help with money]. Anyway it goes without saying, the manix 2 has been one of the most perfect knives for me [in the FFG version]. Its an amazing slicer, great shape and design+ overal aesthetics, a nice blade length, quite strong, interesting and fun locking system that strays from the past slip-its, liner locks, and lock backs/mid locks etc. Not to mention its incredible smooth action. Having a Manix that is of greater length and thickness, ESPECIALLY using my favorite steel, H1, or even the other types of steel's you mentioned Ed, and of course your coveted Super ED steel =] Would be one amazing sprint run knife, if not a great production knife. Although with those materials, shape, and design, I can only imagine that the price point would be double the current manix 2. But would not stop me from trying to sell my left kidney for one. lol.

Ed if you don't mind, myself and another avid, knife enthusiast may ask to pick your brain one day. I will Pm you shortly.

Again please keep the discussion going, there are many great ideas, theories, and knowledge flowing within this thread, and I appreciate everyones input in the matter.

[Nonprophet]

schemp mule team.... I'm in! You guys have the right ideas and I'm buying no matter what!

[224477]

I quite like a choil, on a longer blade for more control over fine work. But:

1) For me, cutting edge length is more important that total blade length. Spyderco has plenty of folders with around 4" total blade length, but off the top of my head I can only think of 3 that have a cutting edge >3.5" (police, military & resilience) and they all have fine blades or tips. A robust larger folder is what the Spyderco line is missing out on. The original Manix had a cutting edge length <3.5", which means that functionally (for some functions at least) it is a medium rather than a large folder.

2) In a larger knife, cutting edge : total length ratio becomes more important. Some smaller knives have a very short cutting edge, but make perfect ergonomic sense. A low edge:length ratio on a large folder just means a ridiculously oversized handle and loads of excess wieght.

The military has a well designed choil for a larger folder, as it doesn't waste much blade length, although I would prefer the pivot to be set further forward to improve the edge:length ratio overall.

Brummie, I thought more of not ending up on a 4.75 blade with a 3.75 or less cutting edge? :rolleyes:

I hated the looks of the folding barong, the blade deserved the treatment which was later done by Tom Krein, it should look like that from the begining. I know thats a personal preference only, I just spotted that MOST of Ed`s blades DO have a blade choil - I guess its already a significant marker of Ed`s designs.

If you take a look on the new Navaja folder, you can see the handle already offers 50% of the front choil, being, what I call a 'narrow Persian handle shape' - why the blade offers more than the other 50% needed to creat the 50/50 effect? I think thats wasting of edgeness :D You get the point. Another thing is the handle design is nothing of Navajas, they never had a front choil.

I think a 50/50 choil like on the Police3 (we talk big folders, right?) is enough. Offers the option of a closer to edge grip for enhanced manipulation but doesnt 'steal' the edge from the blade.

We talk big folders here (great thread Sal, thanks for bringing this up), there is a difference in big folder for general carry (or as a defensive tool - I hate that word) and big folder one wants to use as a folding camp knife, as I see it.

I just dont get why the folks need to have a big but folding knife, with ability to destroy a smaller vehicle, cut down a couple of trees, chop wood for fire - from my perspective - better take a fixed knife, or axe..

I dont want a big folder that is heavy (in my book heavy is 200grams and up).

If you take a look on the history, the navajas with 15-20CM blades have been just around 100-160grams. The pros of the big knife is the be able to carry as much blade in as small package as possible.

I want a secure lock. Spyderco, from my perspective offers two suitable locks for this job, one being the BB lock, the other one being a compression lock.
In my book, the comp lock beats the BB lock. I guess some of you have seen the fail Ankerson managed on the Manix2, I believe the reason for that might be the shock from hitting the wood, when the power of stress was possibly higher than the strenght of the spring the presses the ball against the blade. The polished ball is able to slip, under some conditions, very extreme conditions.
I prefer the comp lock - that one stands basically on how thick the liner is and how strong the pivot and stop pin are. Keeping the pivot and stop pin oversized is substantial for the lock strenth. If you use a 1.5mm liner, if will be superstrong.

You can create the 'carraca' sound of the ratchet too. On comp lock there used to be a detent that kept the blade in closed position. Make a couple of steps, create multiple levels of that detent and the blade will create the noise when opening, as we all some kind of safety feature to prevent the unoppened blade to snap back, what is, however, not likely to happen, as the comp lock is missing the back spring (the reason why the big folder can amputate you finger in case on a snap).

As for designs, I prefer sleek designs over the wide blade camp choppers. Sleeks makes the blade faster (in terms of moving with it). I live in town, I dont live in forrest, and in case I would, I would not carry a folder. I do not plan to cut out of a Boeing with a folding knife either :D

[Muad'Dib]

I'll say hi again, since it's been months since I last posted. It took me about a billion years to read this thread, but now that I have I thought I'd post my thoughts. Hopefully they'll add more value than just saying that all you large folder fans should just use a fixed blade.

It seems to me that there are two directions that have a fan base on this thread. One being that of the 5"+ thin blade with a thin pocketable folded size for the LEO who not only can legally carry a large folder but also have a need for one. The other being the large burly camp/wilderness type knife, that can handle some chopping and impact.

Now, I'll have to admit, that the chances of me buying either type of knife is slim, if only because I already have 15 or so Spydies queued up on my want list already. If I was going to buy one, it would be the latter. So, after my roundabout and obvious analysis, my suggestion is, why not make both of them? Even though I probably won't buy either one of them, as an engineer, I'd love Spyderco to make a really burly, tough, camp folder, mostly to see their approach to solving that set of obstacles.

Now, I wouldn't be surprised if Sal responds with a response explaining the difficulties of bringing one new knife to market let alone two, especially lacking real data on consumer desire/need, which I totally understand. I guess all I'm really saying is that in an effort to identify the desired usage type of a big folder, one might not need to be discounted in favor of another, at least not permanently.

Sal, on the topic of lock strength, I understand that you don't want to give out research data about failure loads that you and yours have compiled, but in the interest of my education, would you mind sharing the manner in which various lock types fail? e.g. lock backs fail by lock bar pin shear, liner locks fail by pivot pin shear (made up examples) If not, I understand. If so, thanks.

[Bill1170]

Regarding the Shempp mule blade: Since San Mai is trademarked by another knife company, we need a catchy name for Ed Shempp's tri-layered blade steel. How about a contest on this forum?

I'll go first: Shemppwich, or Triple Threat. How about HTS for Hard-Tough-Strong?

[chuck_roxas45]

Tri-mascus?

[The Mastiff]

I'd like to add a thought. I'm of the slim, lighter carryable design thought but I would like a strong and tough blade steel. This rules some of the stainless grades out because though sort of tough, they will not compare to the O-1, 3V, A2 , or vascowear/cruware, or even (cpm )D2 steels. Of course I've just lost a bunch of people that value corrosion resistance much more than I do.

I believe in fitting the steel to the design and jobs that will be done using the knife. Stronger, longer but not bulky and heavy means increasing the strength of the components. The whole purpose of a knife is to cut, so the blade is a pretty important component.

Using a stainless that charpys at 12-15 ft lbs makes less sense than using one that gets numbers of 40, on up into the hundreds ( 3V).

It becomes a lot easier to keep the size and thickness of the police while increasing the strength and toughness.

Too big, and thick and heavy and why not carry a fixed blade?

[arty]

For me, once a pocket knife won't fit in your pocket, I'd just as soon use a fixed blade. I can't see using a folder for chopping or heavy duty work outdoors.
I'd like a Catcherman, but without any partial serrations. In fact, I'd really like an upsized Rookie, but with a blade about 4 1/4 or 4 1/2" long. The longer blade would allow the 5" or slightly longer folded knife to fit my pocket, and a 2.5mm or 3mm thick blade would be great for fishing or other chores that require a large knife.
I would prefer double liners, but a thin overall handle. I am not fond of using clips - I can easily see losing the knife in a fishing scene in a boat. I wouldn't care if a clip were present or not.
I have an old Gerber fishing knife with a large 5" blade. I'd prefer a little less flexibility and a slightly shorter blade. The Gerber always needed to be on my belt in a sheath. I'd also prefer a steel than the 440C in the Gerber, with somewhat better edge holding, like VG10 or 154Cm - or better. In a canoe, I am OK with a folding fishing knife with a blade this long - a belt sheath works fine when sitting in a canoe.

[arty]

For me, once a pocket knife won't fit in your pocket, I'd just as soon use a fixed blade. I can't see using a folder for chopping or heavy duty work outdoors.
I'd like a Catcherman, but without any partial serrations. In fact, I'd really like an upsized Rookie, but with a blade about 4 1/4 or 4 1/2" long. The longer blade would allow the 5" or slightly longer folded knife to fit my pocket, and a 2.5mm or 3mm thick blade would be great for fishing or other chores that require a large knife.
I would prefer double liners, but a thin overall handle. I am not fond of using clips - I can easily see losing the knife in a fishing scene in a boat. I wouldn't care if a clip were present or not.
I have an old Gerber fishing knife with a large 5" blade. I'd prefer a little less flexibility and a slightly shorter blade. The Gerber always needed to be on my belt in a sheath. I'd also prefer a steel than the 440C in the Gerber, with somewhat better edge holding, like VG10 or 154Cm - or better. In a canoe, I am OK with a folding fishing knife with a blade this long - a belt sheath works fine when sitting in a canoe.

[yablanowitz]

Arty, your description of what you want sounds like a description of the Police 3.

[gb12549]

I've enjoyed the thread and really appreciate Sal ( "management" ) being in this discussion! I recently was gifted Spyderco (after much research and an Xmas list!) and will continue to buy as the pocket allows.
I'll echo other posters and say my ideal would be a sized up Chinook to the 5.5 blade length, with nothing more than an 8 - 10oz. carry weight.
I like all around utility, and to be all around means to cover power and stopping ability.....like why I've owned Cane Corso dogs for the past 16 years. Here's a dog, like my 160lb male, that can herd, hunt, protect, jog with me and take all the abuse that toddlers and rug rats can dish out without the thought of a growl.
I see a Spyderco mega folder being that NFL linebacker - strong as ****, fast as ****, & 260lbs with no fat......not a bloated 6' 8" offensive lineman! Getting that combo would be EDC for, IMO, lots of folks, as the laws allow.

[STR]

I am amused by some of the super large knives out there and I do own a couple of the Rajah 1 models from Cold Steel. Seriously though they are more 'novelty' knives than serious users at least for me. Don't get me wrong, you can seriously use them when you want to but quite honestly I can't imagine needing anything larger than a Military for a folding knife and as far as I'm concerned that or the other knives similar in size to that are already large folders.

One other thing about large folders that I find to be a disadvantage is that certain of them make it darn hard to even get my hand in my pocket to get my keys for my car without first having to remove the knife. This is not always something convenient and since in this political environment these days many would see a large knife as a weapon it is ill advised in my opinion especially if you live in a big city where they write their own laws circumventing the state laws for what is legal to carry.

Anyway, I think Spyderco already makes knives big enough to serve all needs yet small enough to conceal and carry comfortably. No need for change in that if you ask me.

STR

[sal]

Hi STR,

Looks like you fall into the "Don't need it" group. But as you said, you did buy "a couple of the Rajah 1 models from Cold Steel".

Hey Muad,

Now, I wouldn't be surprised if Sal responds with a response explaining the difficulties of bringing one new knife to market let alone two, especially lacking real data on consumer desire/need, which I totally understand. I guess all I'm really saying is that in an effort to identify the desired usage type of a big folder, one might not need to be discounted in favor of another, at least not permanently.

They are two completely different designs as I see it. We would have to do some lab tests on the two concepts and weigh the value. I doubt that they would even use the same lock as the requirements of an impact resistant joint would be different than a large slicer.

Sal, on the topic of lock strength, I understand that you don't want to give out research data about failure loads that you and yours have compiled, but in the interest of my education, would you mind sharing the manner in which various lock types fail? e.g. lock backs fail by lock bar pin shear, liner locks fail by pivot pin shear (made up examples) If not, I understand. If so, thanks.

There are some "general" concepts but over the years, we've learned how to strengthen. We build a model, break it. (We have a dedicated breaking machine that provides data and graphs on the break). The goal is to have all of the parts go at once at the predetermined strength requirement. Usually one part will break first. We strengthen the part (bigger, tougher, better materials, harder, etc.) make another model and break it again. study the break, strengthen the part, retest, etc.

All locks have advantages and disadvantages. Eric and I select locks based on the design's need. There are a lot of good locks out there. We haved also invented locks on demand.

sal

[MCM]

Am standing by my prev posts on this topic.
Large knifes can be made slim, pocket able and strong.
Its just that few have made them yet, from top shelf materials.
5"-5.5" is no problem.
Looking forward to Sal's final decision on this.
Am pushing for an upper end Co. made model.
One that also looks nice & operates smooth rather than a tank you can hammer into a tree stump or truck hood. :D

[Visual Articulation]

Maybe
1.Trinity Steel
2.triage
3.triad
Not in order for favorites

[Muad'Dib]

They are two completely different designs as I see it. We would have to do some lab tests on the two concepts and weigh the value. I doubt that they would even use the same lock as the requirements of an impact resistant joint would be different than a large slicer.

Right. And as I mentioned, I would be much more interested in seeing how you guys tackle the issues of the burly chopper.

There are some "general" concepts but over the years, we've learned how to strengthen. We build a model, break it. (We have a dedicated breaking machine that provides data and graphs on the break). The goal is to have all of the parts go at once at the predetermined strength requirement. Usually one part will break first. We strengthen the part (bigger, tougher, better materials, harder, etc.) make another model and break it again. study the break, strengthen the part, retest, etc.

All locks have advantages and disadvantages. Eric and I select locks based on the design's need. There are a lot of good locks out there. We haved also invented locks on demand.

sal

That's interesting. I guess I was thinking of you guys testing the locks as an individual isolated component, rather than testing each knife individually as a whole system. I wonder if competing knife manufacturer's are doing even half the amount of testing that you guys are.

[Visual Articulation]

Schempp Stratified Steel
or
Spyderco Stratified Steel
i like these better... but your mileage may vary :spyder: :D

[chuck_roxas45]

Hi STR,


I doubt that they would even use the same lock as the requirements of an impact resistant joint would be different than a large slicer.

Sal, that you have not dismissed a chopper out of hand truly makes my day. :D

Even if what gets made is not a chopper but will be along the robustness of a larger millie, I 'd be all for that.