You've got mail-Ding Ding Ding...
sorry. I have updated my profile as well...
Edited by - 103 on 10/31/2002 12:25:12 PM
On the Spot.
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java
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RL,
Cruised over to Dallas yesterday and picked up the Impala and SE Temperance. The owner checked and there amidst the 30 or 40 knives waiting fer Rico - maybe I exaggerate a wee bit - was Micarta SPOT 068. The stainless looks to be finished okay but the Micarta scales are rough and overhang the VG10 on the inside of the cutouts.
No beefs on the Impala though! Can hardly wait for the PE variation and may have to get an un-numbered baby to use as an EDC (Hope the G10 Rookie SE didn't hear that!) Nice grippy handle! The handle's ergos are great and the recessed rectangle under the end of the clip has the same grippy texture and carries the handle securely in the pocket. Fit and finish of the whole knife is SPOT on! (bad pun - considering the topic....) including the lanyard hole. Mechanism is smooth and the blade is the right size for a good camp/game folder. The VG10 finish is flawless can't wait to try one out in the field. I won't be using the GH, so I'll buy a PE sans hook but, I read the article in the Jan 03 Tactical Knives issue and have no doubt about her performance. I was unimpressed when I first heard of the Impala but after handling the real thing, all I can say is, <font color="blue">Good work, Spyderco!! I'll take three!</font>
Hope we can get to the bottom of the finish issue on the SPOT. She's a beauty of a neck knife and destined to be a hot seller. I saw where Carlos is bringing your quality issues up with Sal and hope this is just a one time slip up.
***Oh yeah! Golden could've used a slightly larger box. The width of the neck sheath makes for a squeaky tight fit in the box!
<b><font color="blue">"A hole-less knife is a soul-less knife is a whole less knife" <i>-Javanese proverb</i></font></b>
Cruised over to Dallas yesterday and picked up the Impala and SE Temperance. The owner checked and there amidst the 30 or 40 knives waiting fer Rico - maybe I exaggerate a wee bit - was Micarta SPOT 068. The stainless looks to be finished okay but the Micarta scales are rough and overhang the VG10 on the inside of the cutouts.
No beefs on the Impala though! Can hardly wait for the PE variation and may have to get an un-numbered baby to use as an EDC (Hope the G10 Rookie SE didn't hear that!) Nice grippy handle! The handle's ergos are great and the recessed rectangle under the end of the clip has the same grippy texture and carries the handle securely in the pocket. Fit and finish of the whole knife is SPOT on! (bad pun - considering the topic....) including the lanyard hole. Mechanism is smooth and the blade is the right size for a good camp/game folder. The VG10 finish is flawless can't wait to try one out in the field. I won't be using the GH, so I'll buy a PE sans hook but, I read the article in the Jan 03 Tactical Knives issue and have no doubt about her performance. I was unimpressed when I first heard of the Impala but after handling the real thing, all I can say is, <font color="blue">Good work, Spyderco!! I'll take three!</font>
Hope we can get to the bottom of the finish issue on the SPOT. She's a beauty of a neck knife and destined to be a hot seller. I saw where Carlos is bringing your quality issues up with Sal and hope this is just a one time slip up.
***Oh yeah! Golden could've used a slightly larger box. The width of the neck sheath makes for a squeaky tight fit in the box!
<b><font color="blue">"A hole-less knife is a soul-less knife is a whole less knife" <i>-Javanese proverb</i></font></b>
Java,
Nice blurb! I like the Impala (impaler). It feels great in the hand, and like you said, the actuation and egonomics are fab. The blems I am getting drive me nuts though. Being a bit of a composites weenie, when I see sloppiness in the G-`10 scales, or finish work not taken all the way to completion on the metals, then I get hot; especially at premium pricing. We should be able to show these knives-off to fellow experts and not have to make excuses for the workmanship. Then again, perhaps I shouldn't voice my observations on the quality issues, as most of my gripes would blow by most folks who purchase these knives(and apparently those factory QA types). Heck, it may sound like I am a fussy old dude with no life. Arguably so........
Nice blurb! I like the Impala (impaler). It feels great in the hand, and like you said, the actuation and egonomics are fab. The blems I am getting drive me nuts though. Being a bit of a composites weenie, when I see sloppiness in the G-`10 scales, or finish work not taken all the way to completion on the metals, then I get hot; especially at premium pricing. We should be able to show these knives-off to fellow experts and not have to make excuses for the workmanship. Then again, perhaps I shouldn't voice my observations on the quality issues, as most of my gripes would blow by most folks who purchase these knives(and apparently those factory QA types). Heck, it may sound like I am a fussy old dude with no life. Arguably so........
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java
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RL,
Composites weenie?! You in "tha Industry" man? Mix, weave, prepregs, or milling the laminates themselves? Had a hoop and a group of playtime working with the original CF and then boron graphite weaves and lay-ups when I was tearing up airplanes for a living. Got in on the follow up when two F-15s got torched at Luke AFB outside of Phoenix. The burning composite laminates released long strands of the fibers and when they settled on high tension lines in good numbers, transformers started poppin' and blacked out the north side of Phoenix. Interesting night - that one was! Wasn't the last time we messed with Phoenix either but I digress.
Fussy??? Hardly - quality work is quality work and when you see it slipping, you're 100% to say something. Spyderco stakes its reputation for quality on the fit, finish, and function of their product and for the additional $40.00 for the Micarta SPOT the finish better darn well be SPOT on! I'm sure Spyderco oversees or specs the quality for work that is outsourced from Golden. Japanese manufacturers are well known for their consistant quality. Kind of makes me wonder if all the work was done in Japan. Hope Sal and Co can offer solutions here.....
<b><font color="blue">"A hole-less knife is a soul-less knife is a whole less knife" <i>-Javanese proverb</i></font></b>
Composites weenie?! You in "tha Industry" man? Mix, weave, prepregs, or milling the laminates themselves? Had a hoop and a group of playtime working with the original CF and then boron graphite weaves and lay-ups when I was tearing up airplanes for a living. Got in on the follow up when two F-15s got torched at Luke AFB outside of Phoenix. The burning composite laminates released long strands of the fibers and when they settled on high tension lines in good numbers, transformers started poppin' and blacked out the north side of Phoenix. Interesting night - that one was! Wasn't the last time we messed with Phoenix either but I digress.
Fussy??? Hardly - quality work is quality work and when you see it slipping, you're 100% to say something. Spyderco stakes its reputation for quality on the fit, finish, and function of their product and for the additional $40.00 for the Micarta SPOT the finish better darn well be SPOT on! I'm sure Spyderco oversees or specs the quality for work that is outsourced from Golden. Japanese manufacturers are well known for their consistant quality. Kind of makes me wonder if all the work was done in Japan. Hope Sal and Co can offer solutions here.....
<b><font color="blue">"A hole-less knife is a soul-less knife is a whole less knife" <i>-Javanese proverb</i></font></b>
Well Hi 103. This is the first chance that I've had to respond since I returned from the NY show. Obviously you are not pleased with your SPOT. I'm sorry.
I do thank you for your input on the inside edge of the micarta. We will certainly look into improving that. I would suggest that for yours, you roll up or fold a small pieces of 400 grit emory paper and break the edge. It would only take a few minutes and would make you feel better to have a perect piece. I think that a Dremel might be a bit too much abrasion for the micarta. Be careful not to scratch the surface of the micarta with the emory paper. We use a much finer grit for polishing micarta.
What I can do is perhaps share some of my thoughts that might bring more focus to your judgement.
We used VG-10 as the steel of choice. The only other neck knife that I found with VG-10 was Fallknivens and it is considerably more expensive, even with its injection molded handle and sheath. The only way that I could have improved on the 9.0 VG-10 steel would be with BG-42 or powdered metals.
The ergos have been well thought out for the intended purpose and seem to work well. I would have to give it at least an 8.5 when comparing our neck knife to others.
The grind is very good. the drilling and reaming of the holes is also very good. The blade polish is good as is the final edge. From my point of view, also when comparing with others, I would have to give the blade finishing at least a 9.0. Even you said it had a "jewelry like finish". Very difficult to do on VG-10.
To compare Spyderco with CRKT, Junglee, Emerson or Gerber isn't fair. When they use steels like VG-10, you can reasonably compare. VG-10 is considerably more expensive and much harder to work than anything currently being used by those companies. CRKT,s neck knife is made from 420J2, I believe? Ernie is using 154cm, which is a good steel (though not VG-10), but as I remember, Ernie's LaGriffe is more expensive than our SPOT.
The small micarta slab, shaped to the skeleton handle, pinned and polished is not often seen on anything but custom knives. The fact that we were able to achieve this is an example of craftsmanship I've not seen on other neck knives. At least an 8.5 in terms of cost and difficulty.
The knive comes with a custom Kydex sheath, each is weight tested for security. At least an 8.0, especially when being compared to injection molded sheaths.
Blade Steel 9.0
Blade finishing 9.0
Ergos 8.5
Handle scales 8.5
Kydex sheath 8.0
Average 8.6
I would give it a higher judgement that 7.0. IMO, taking away 30% of its performance because you were able to find a flaw in a new design/concept is cruel....but I respect your opinion.
I would like to know what you would consider a 10 in a neck knife?
sal
I do thank you for your input on the inside edge of the micarta. We will certainly look into improving that. I would suggest that for yours, you roll up or fold a small pieces of 400 grit emory paper and break the edge. It would only take a few minutes and would make you feel better to have a perect piece. I think that a Dremel might be a bit too much abrasion for the micarta. Be careful not to scratch the surface of the micarta with the emory paper. We use a much finer grit for polishing micarta.
What I can do is perhaps share some of my thoughts that might bring more focus to your judgement.
We used VG-10 as the steel of choice. The only other neck knife that I found with VG-10 was Fallknivens and it is considerably more expensive, even with its injection molded handle and sheath. The only way that I could have improved on the 9.0 VG-10 steel would be with BG-42 or powdered metals.
The ergos have been well thought out for the intended purpose and seem to work well. I would have to give it at least an 8.5 when comparing our neck knife to others.
The grind is very good. the drilling and reaming of the holes is also very good. The blade polish is good as is the final edge. From my point of view, also when comparing with others, I would have to give the blade finishing at least a 9.0. Even you said it had a "jewelry like finish". Very difficult to do on VG-10.
To compare Spyderco with CRKT, Junglee, Emerson or Gerber isn't fair. When they use steels like VG-10, you can reasonably compare. VG-10 is considerably more expensive and much harder to work than anything currently being used by those companies. CRKT,s neck knife is made from 420J2, I believe? Ernie is using 154cm, which is a good steel (though not VG-10), but as I remember, Ernie's LaGriffe is more expensive than our SPOT.
The small micarta slab, shaped to the skeleton handle, pinned and polished is not often seen on anything but custom knives. The fact that we were able to achieve this is an example of craftsmanship I've not seen on other neck knives. At least an 8.5 in terms of cost and difficulty.
The knive comes with a custom Kydex sheath, each is weight tested for security. At least an 8.0, especially when being compared to injection molded sheaths.
Blade Steel 9.0
Blade finishing 9.0
Ergos 8.5
Handle scales 8.5
Kydex sheath 8.0
Average 8.6
I would give it a higher judgement that 7.0. IMO, taking away 30% of its performance because you were able to find a flaw in a new design/concept is cruel....but I respect your opinion.
I would like to know what you would consider a 10 in a neck knife?
sal
Sal,
I'm reading your Spot reply post after replying to your response to my "Other" post on quality issues. Hmmm. Sorry that you took my comments as cruel. I know nothing about all that detailed knife manufacturing stuff you listed. Sounds like the Spot is quite an accomplishment viewed in that light. When I first saw the Micarta onsert I said "Oh Wow Cool". When I felt it and looked closely I said-"awe too bad". When I compare those brands of kneck knives, it is from a gut-feel, eyeballing them viewpoint. I pick it up, feel the materials, look at the facets, check the balance and the fit in my hand. If it looks and feels good, heck I consider it to be a good knife. That's about it for my level of appreciation. I guess I am not in the same leauge as some of the collectors who can wax poetically about the merits of the various steels. I can certainly appreciate all of that. I guess I don't know enough about the technical manufacturing aspects to be popping-off with all the criticisms. I had my Spot out today and marveled at the funtional design. Don't think I'll be taking the abrasives to it; not my job and I know I could wreck it if I goofed. My Spot is what it is. It can be a 10 if you like. Thanks for the low down once again. Best of luck in getting your factory back on the quality track.
(edited for spello's and added last line)103
Edited by - 103 on 11/12/2002 6:52:12 PM
I'm reading your Spot reply post after replying to your response to my "Other" post on quality issues. Hmmm. Sorry that you took my comments as cruel. I know nothing about all that detailed knife manufacturing stuff you listed. Sounds like the Spot is quite an accomplishment viewed in that light. When I first saw the Micarta onsert I said "Oh Wow Cool". When I felt it and looked closely I said-"awe too bad". When I compare those brands of kneck knives, it is from a gut-feel, eyeballing them viewpoint. I pick it up, feel the materials, look at the facets, check the balance and the fit in my hand. If it looks and feels good, heck I consider it to be a good knife. That's about it for my level of appreciation. I guess I am not in the same leauge as some of the collectors who can wax poetically about the merits of the various steels. I can certainly appreciate all of that. I guess I don't know enough about the technical manufacturing aspects to be popping-off with all the criticisms. I had my Spot out today and marveled at the funtional design. Don't think I'll be taking the abrasives to it; not my job and I know I could wreck it if I goofed. My Spot is what it is. It can be a 10 if you like. Thanks for the low down once again. Best of luck in getting your factory back on the quality track.
(edited for spello's and added last line)103
Edited by - 103 on 11/12/2002 6:52:12 PM
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java
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Sal,
You have produced a long awaited product that is a cut above in steel selection, design, and function. I would agree on your rating with all EXCEPT the scales. (And for my mitts a 9.5 on the ergonomics.) Unless you're having the scales hand finished and pinned this is a CNC adjustment/quality issue that can and should be resolved. My Collectors Club SPOT will remain in the condition it was received in (unless Spyderco wants to polish out the scales) and I will buy an additional 2 Micarta SPOTs for daily users and if they have the same "quality" defect, the emory cloth comes out. With the kind of customer dedication shown by loyal Spydie fans, Collectors included, we just have come to expect the same cut above in quality. This Forum is an excellent source to "brainstorm" and gather inputs/ideas to improve Spyderco products. Better feedback at the bargain price of registration from ELUs cannot be cannot be found. In brainstorming, no idea is rejected or offense taken. I leave by saying, I'll give you the 8.5, maybe even go 9.0 for the Micarta SPOT. But with that said, and in view of the additional $40 for the Micarta scales, why not strive for 10.0?
Also, could you shed light on how you feel that BG42 would have been an improved choice for the steel. The powdered metals are understandable.
IMO: The solid VG-10 editions that I've handled approach the 10.0 BTW. These are the best value in a neck knife bar none! Many congrats on them.
<b><font color="blue">"A hole-less knife is a soul-less knife is a whole less knife" -Javanese proverb </font> </b>
Edited by - java on 11/11/2002 10:07:32 AM
You have produced a long awaited product that is a cut above in steel selection, design, and function. I would agree on your rating with all EXCEPT the scales. (And for my mitts a 9.5 on the ergonomics.) Unless you're having the scales hand finished and pinned this is a CNC adjustment/quality issue that can and should be resolved. My Collectors Club SPOT will remain in the condition it was received in (unless Spyderco wants to polish out the scales) and I will buy an additional 2 Micarta SPOTs for daily users and if they have the same "quality" defect, the emory cloth comes out. With the kind of customer dedication shown by loyal Spydie fans, Collectors included, we just have come to expect the same cut above in quality. This Forum is an excellent source to "brainstorm" and gather inputs/ideas to improve Spyderco products. Better feedback at the bargain price of registration from ELUs cannot be cannot be found. In brainstorming, no idea is rejected or offense taken. I leave by saying, I'll give you the 8.5, maybe even go 9.0 for the Micarta SPOT. But with that said, and in view of the additional $40 for the Micarta scales, why not strive for 10.0?
Also, could you shed light on how you feel that BG42 would have been an improved choice for the steel. The powdered metals are understandable.
IMO: The solid VG-10 editions that I've handled approach the 10.0 BTW. These are the best value in a neck knife bar none! Many congrats on them.
<b><font color="blue">"A hole-less knife is a soul-less knife is a whole less knife" -Javanese proverb </font> </b>
Edited by - java on 11/11/2002 10:07:32 AM
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ThinkOfTheChildren
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Just wanted to say that my SPOT is also messed up. Here's my writeup on BFC: <a href="http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... =229094</a>
Also, here are pics if anyone's interested: <a href="http://cpm440v.tripod.com/spot">http:// ... om/spot</a>
Also, here are pics if anyone's interested: <a href="http://cpm440v.tripod.com/spot">http:// ... om/spot</a>
SPOT response
Hi Think, Thanx for the detailed report on the new SPOT. And thanx for the post on the Spyderco forums.
As much as I dislike hearing about problems or imperfections, I always appreciate hearing the truth. Truth still is the biggest circle.
Obviously we have a few things that have to be improved on the model. The unfinished inside portion of the skeletonized handle is the first most obvious problem, and has been mentioned by others in the forums. We are currently working on this both in Golden and in Japan. As much as I dislike letting imperfect pieces go through, it does happen. We are currently finishing the inside of the handle of the pieces here and those being made in Japan.
The holes in the blade were added to reduce weight and they are sort of a “signature” on the design. We planned to use them in part of the “grip” for the Kydex, but this is still being developed.
You guys are hard taskmasters, but it is you that we are tying to serve. So I still have to thank you for your keen eyes.
Java. “I’M NOT BEING DEFENSIVE!. heh, heh, just kidding. Sorry if I appeared that way. I’ll have to look more closely. I wouldn’t want to be defensive. That is a condition that impairs hearing and doesn’t serve.
sal
Hi Think, Thanx for the detailed report on the new SPOT. And thanx for the post on the Spyderco forums.
As much as I dislike hearing about problems or imperfections, I always appreciate hearing the truth. Truth still is the biggest circle.
Obviously we have a few things that have to be improved on the model. The unfinished inside portion of the skeletonized handle is the first most obvious problem, and has been mentioned by others in the forums. We are currently working on this both in Golden and in Japan. As much as I dislike letting imperfect pieces go through, it does happen. We are currently finishing the inside of the handle of the pieces here and those being made in Japan.
The holes in the blade were added to reduce weight and they are sort of a “signature” on the design. We planned to use them in part of the “grip” for the Kydex, but this is still being developed.
You guys are hard taskmasters, but it is you that we are tying to serve. So I still have to thank you for your keen eyes.
Java. “I’M NOT BEING DEFENSIVE!. heh, heh, just kidding. Sorry if I appeared that way. I’ll have to look more closely. I wouldn’t want to be defensive. That is a condition that impairs hearing and doesn’t serve.
sal
All parents are defensive of their newborn. The 'net' is notorius for blowing things out of proportion in very short order. Can't see the other person's face or hear their inflections. 'course those can be misinterpreted too. <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Disguised as a responsible adult.
Disguised as a responsible adult.
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vampyrewolf
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- Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
I'll wait a bit on ordering my VG-10/Micarta SPOT if you still plan to improve the sheath... I could always get one and ship it to Eric "Normark" to see if he could improve it, but if SFO will be doing it, I'll wait.
I haven't handled a SPOT yet, my local store hasn't gotten any in yet to handle, so I can only throw out my ideas on the 10.0 necker...
weight: I find my Q about the right weight for a necker(tossed it on a ball chain, and after 8 knives of testing, it was the best weight), so about 1.0-1.5oz
size: I have 1 necker, my CS Readyedge, but find it short. The handle and blade are a bit too small for me. How about a 3" handle and 2-2.5" blade. I like the forward cant and belly of the current model though.
grind: I'd like to see the cricket style blade in flat grind, offering more strength to the edge
edge: definately v-grind... hate chisel edges(I'm still trying to make the chisel edge tip on my native into a v-grind... 3 months of work and going)
steel: VG-10, BG-42, MBS-26(I think this is the stuff the <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> kitchen series is made of)... the CPM metals might be too hard for this use. Most neckers get carried for a small utility, sometimes with the sheath modified for belt carry. The CPM would be a pain to sharpen, while VG-10 is quick to redo.
thickness: 3-4mm, as this would allow for <i>some</i> prying
finish: satin finish, and with flat grind you need a grind on the spine like the calypso jr lt and 'fly models. possibly thumb notches for better control in wet hands
extras: even change the micarta scales to g-10 with the crosshatch like the military, improve grip when wet or cold(I like the kraton grip of my CS for this... think of working in a freezer for 20minutes without gloves.)
This is just my opinion, I could be wrong.
*Our greatest triumph comes not from NOT falling down, but from getting back up every time.*
I haven't handled a SPOT yet, my local store hasn't gotten any in yet to handle, so I can only throw out my ideas on the 10.0 necker...
weight: I find my Q about the right weight for a necker(tossed it on a ball chain, and after 8 knives of testing, it was the best weight), so about 1.0-1.5oz
size: I have 1 necker, my CS Readyedge, but find it short. The handle and blade are a bit too small for me. How about a 3" handle and 2-2.5" blade. I like the forward cant and belly of the current model though.
grind: I'd like to see the cricket style blade in flat grind, offering more strength to the edge
edge: definately v-grind... hate chisel edges(I'm still trying to make the chisel edge tip on my native into a v-grind... 3 months of work and going)
steel: VG-10, BG-42, MBS-26(I think this is the stuff the <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> kitchen series is made of)... the CPM metals might be too hard for this use. Most neckers get carried for a small utility, sometimes with the sheath modified for belt carry. The CPM would be a pain to sharpen, while VG-10 is quick to redo.
thickness: 3-4mm, as this would allow for <i>some</i> prying
finish: satin finish, and with flat grind you need a grind on the spine like the calypso jr lt and 'fly models. possibly thumb notches for better control in wet hands
extras: even change the micarta scales to g-10 with the crosshatch like the military, improve grip when wet or cold(I like the kraton grip of my CS for this... think of working in a freezer for 20minutes without gloves.)
This is just my opinion, I could be wrong.
*Our greatest triumph comes not from NOT falling down, but from getting back up every time.*
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java
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- Location: Rosamond - Tropical Paradise without the tropics.....(or the paradise)
Sal,
Sorry I didn’t catch your reply earlier. I may have overstated the defensive part but I understand your viewpoint. To hear y’all are working on this from both Golden and Japan is “golden” for me. Soichiro-san would be proud of your interpretation of the defensive condition! <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> Thanks for listening and keep up the good work!
I’m still in for extras beyond the Collectors main and all variations. Number of SPOTs will approach the number of Qs, Prides, or Crickets here at the old Double E if I’m not careful and I’m sorely tempted to see what Frank Recupero can do to one of these babies.
Chinook,
I see you've been eavesdropping on Mrs Java and I but left your camera at home again. <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> How was Bandon?
<b><font color="blue">"A hole-less knife is a soul-less knife is a whole less knife" <i>-Javanese proverb</i></font></b>
Sorry I didn’t catch your reply earlier. I may have overstated the defensive part but I understand your viewpoint. To hear y’all are working on this from both Golden and Japan is “golden” for me. Soichiro-san would be proud of your interpretation of the defensive condition! <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> Thanks for listening and keep up the good work!
I’m still in for extras beyond the Collectors main and all variations. Number of SPOTs will approach the number of Qs, Prides, or Crickets here at the old Double E if I’m not careful and I’m sorely tempted to see what Frank Recupero can do to one of these babies.
Chinook,
I see you've been eavesdropping on Mrs Java and I but left your camera at home again. <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> How was Bandon?
<b><font color="blue">"A hole-less knife is a soul-less knife is a whole less knife" <i>-Javanese proverb</i></font></b>