Lock strength debate

[sal]

Considering the question of "what is the strongest Lock". There is no speculation. We have broken hundreds of locks thousands of times. We have no problem getting our minds wrapped around it. We have also learned that "opinion" is of litttle value.

We record the breaks, the numbers, dates, etc.

I believe Deacon, Unit and others expressed why is not a realistic question. "How high is up"?

While some have mentioned; preferences, reliability, engineering, accidental unclocking, etc. Absolute strength of a lock cannot be determined without scientificly testing of said locks and they must be broken to find their limit.

In our testing, we have learned that we can make any lock as strong as we choose to. Make it bigger, harder, tougher, etc. To say that one style of lock is superior by design would be very difficult to prove, considering we can make any lock as strong as we choose to.

For our design purposes, we classify locks into a number of categories with regards to ultimate strength. This is decided when the knife is designed. Based on that decision, we select materials and sizes.

Light duty = 25 - 50 inch/lbs per inch of blade length.
Medium duty = 50 - 100 inch/lbs per inch of blade length.
Heavy duty = 100-200 inch/lbs per inch of blade length.
Very heavy duty (MBC) = over 200 inch/lbs per inch of blade length.

You seem to suggest that it is difficult to "get your minds around" the question. Perhaps you need to get your mind around the fact that there is no answer to your question.

Is the Axis lock, the way it is made by Benchmade stronger than the Triad lock as made by Cold Steel? No problem.

Is the Walker Linerlock stronger than the Reeve Integral Lock? Foolish question.

What kind of a lock do you want and how strong do you want it to be?

sal

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Have knowledge, will share

[Tank]

what he ^ said :D

[Evil D]

I think perhaps the question i meant to ask was, which Spyderco lock/knife combo currently available is strongest? I guess i was just hoping for a generalized answer to a question that can't be generalized.

[dbcad]

I don't care much about what type of lock is in a Spyderco knife. If Spyderco builds it I'm pretty sure it is good for what it is designed to do. Prevent accidental closure of the blade. There's always a safety factor built in too I'm sure.

If I'm trying to do really tough stuff like trying to gouge out huge chunks of wood it will be with a fixed blade or hatchet where operator error and material quality are the biggest variables.

It's just for me, but I like to focus on the steel, blade and handle :)

[The Deacon]

I think perhaps the question i meant to ask was, which Spyderco lock/knife combo currently available is strongest? I guess i was just hoping for a generalized answer to a question that can't be generalized.

Even then I'd rate a few of them "too close to call". Chinook III, Ti/RIL Military, Manix 2, Gayle Bradley, and ParaMilitary are all very strong knives. Personally I'd take the Chinook III because, despite you're feelings, hand neutrality is more important to me than brute strength and I prefer the midlock over the ball lock.

[unit]

I think perhaps the question i meant to ask was, which Spyderco lock/knife combo currently available is strongest? I guess i was just hoping for a generalized answer to a question that can't be generalized.

I am not trying to be a jerk here, but if the most important thing to you is the strongest Spyderco lock/knife combo, and you are not going to put ANY other limitations on it (like blade/handle size, shape, steel, handle material, planned uses, or any of the other factors I typically consider and prioritize above absolute lock strength)...why not simply get a fixed blade?

[Evil D]

I'm not even sure what drove me to ask because it really is one of those things that i don't concern myself with TOO much...like dbcad put it, i know Spyderco wouldn't put out a flimsy lock so i know whatever lock is put on whatever knife, it should be more than up to par. I still don't get why it's such a heated debate though...i almost feel scolded for even asking LOL.

[Evil D]

I am not trying to be a jerk here, but if the most important thing to you is the strongest Spyderco lock/knife combo, and you are not going to put ANY other limitations on it (like blade/handle size, shape, steel, handle material, planned uses, or any of the other factors I typically consider and prioritize above absolute lock strength)...why not simply get a fixed blade?

Now see....that's sort of jumping to conclusions...lock strength isn't even in my top 5 most important things when selecting a knife...i asked just to get an opinion from the masses as to what they felt was the strongest...but i see now that it's a much bigger can of worms than that.

[unit]

This will be my last post...

I am not jumping to any conclusions...I am responding to your question which had no qualifiers other than the strongest lock:

I think perhaps the question i meant to ask was, which Spyderco lock/knife combo currently available is strongest? I guess i was just hoping for a generalized answer to a question that can't be generalized.

As for why you feel scolded for asking...I am sorry you feel that way, but if you go back and re-read your very first words in this thread, you have to admit you knew you were starting a thread that could very likely get out of hand.

Further, your series of questions in this thread has evolved in such a way that one (I) must question exactly what it is you are trying to accomplish.

Now you say that lock strength is not in your top 5 priorities...

[Evil D]

See what i mean? This is what i don't understand...yeah the question i'm asking is evolving, because i just don't seem to understand how this question spirals out of control so easily...it was just a very simple very naive question. People seem down right offended by this question and i just don't understand it. I asked a question expecting to get a general answer to a very broad question, and i understand my mistake there...but geez it's like i questioned peoples religion or something LOL.

No i'm not trying to stir the pot or start a big war, but i did see that this topic is taboo for some stupid reason which was why i said the part about lets not get out of hand, which was just as silly to think it wouldn't as it was to expect such a simple answer from such a broad question. Believe me if i had known it would be instant drama i wouldn't have bothered.

[Blerv]

People seem down right offended by this question and i just don't understand it.

The problem with the question is it's intrinsically linked with the sale of knives. Some companies market their tools with gusto (not just knife makers) and an "unbreakable lock" is the logic of sale. Similar to the "unbreakable comb" which for some reason sold a ton of products in the 80's if I remember correctly.

Practically the problem with "unbreakable" or "tough" is you at some point lose convenience. Push the extremes and there WILL be a compromise. Typically with tools it comes down to ease of use/manipulation and weight.

The least confidence inspiring locking Spyderco I own is my Ladybug. There isn't much except a very thin mold of FRN and a tiny bit of steel. The problem is when I actually put my effort into overriding the lock...It's FAR tougher than I expect it to be. :o It's far weaker laterally at the pivot but again, probably stronger than it has to be.

For me it's more a matter of "how strong am I?" rather than "how strong is this lock?".

I'm not the strongest example of my species and our species isn't a very strong example of the Earth's creatures. We tend to cut things that give as well. The thought that my weak fingers holding a handle and a force hitting the spine of the blade hard enough to break the lock, yet the knife to stay in my hand, is far fetched to say the least. In which case usually the blade would be buried in something and not able to close anyways.

I'm sure there is an example of any good knife failing in a random situation. User error, situational error, manufacturing error, etc. The chance of that happening is very slim and if you are using a robust design for a robust task (or even matching classifications) again the percentage drops further. Vegas has better odds of making you rich.

There is a CHANCE you could walk outside a skyscraper and have a Baby Grand piano drop on you. More realistically you would be killed by a falling coconut in Hawaii.

However, chances are you will fail to die from a gravity-propelled terminal bludgeoning.

[The Deacon]

From where I sit, it has not spiraled out of control at all. It's just that you've asked a series of questions to which there is either no answer or to which the answer would be a matter of opinion for everyone except perhaps Sal. Even then, I'm more certain that he knows which of his knives are the strongest than which single specific model/variant is the strongest. I would again ask what I asked earlier, which do you think is the strongest, and why.

[Evil D]

Yeah it's like i said before i think what i really meant to ask was more like, which Spydie has the strongest lock, etc. I dunno i just sort of expected that a more simple answer was possible but i guess not.

[dj moonbat]

The only thing I really worry about with a knife's lock is whether the knife, if it binds in a cut for a second, will resist closing on my fingers as I'm trying to extract it. Everything else is just a matter of ergonomics, as far as I am concerned.

I'm never going to have cause to stab anyone or anything. I'm not likely to find myself gambling in back alleys over whose lock will fail first as we hit the spines with sledgehammers.

Other people do worry about the more extreme use cases. But some people solve the problem by just not using a folder. Others, by finding an "overbuilt" liner-lock or lockback. Still others, by finding a lock that is more mechanically complicated, and making sure they keep that sucker clean.

[sovereign]

Yeah it's like i said before i think what i really meant to ask was more like, which Spydie has the strongest lock, etc. I dunno i just sort of expected that a more simple answer was possible but i guess not.

Ask the question on bladeforums, etc. Perhaps the answers, err, I mean opinions, will be more direct.

[Evil D]

My biggest concern with a lock is ease of operation. I've always been a fan of back locks probably because that's what i grew up with. I've warmed up to liner/frame locks, and i did really like the ball lock for what it is. I'm now getting a taste of the compression lock and the knife shop guy was going on about the strength of it, and that's what got me thinking about how it "measured up" compared to others. I knew ahead of time that there's more to the overall strength than just the lock design itself..i guess i don't really know what i was trying to ask...chalk this up as a stupid rookie question i guess. I still feel like there's a more simple answer...like one design is inherently stronger than another regardless of how the rest of the knife is built..but i guess that's impossible to say.

[dbcad]

It's all good Evil D :)
For easy operation I'm growing to like the liner or integral frame locks, but they're not good for a lot of left handers. Ball lock is is interesting, looks really cool, and makes for a super smooth action. Back lock or midlock is what everyone is used to including me with my first find of a Gerber gator in the mud outside of a construction site.

For me, and I can only comment for myself, anything really tough should have a fixed blade. I carry at least one in my lunchbox every day.

Interesting how I've latched onto this knife kick over the last year. Still have so much to learn :o

[JNewell]

If you compare the highlighted parts of your posts below, you will see part of the reason why these threads tend to freewheel (or worse - this one is definitely not in the "or worse" category, thankfully). :D

Lets try to not let this get out of hand...i'm just curious what everyones opinion is as far as how the different locks available stack up strength wise? If you had to put them all in order from 1 to whatever, where 1 is the strongest, how would you list them? Lets try to keep opinions on ease of use and left/right handedness out and just focus on strength alone

My biggest concern with a lock is ease of operation. I've always been a fan of back locks probably because that's what i grew up with. I've warmed up to liner/frame locks, and i did really like the ball lock for what it is. I'm now getting a taste of the compression lock and the knife shop guy was going on about the strength of it, and that's what got me thinking about how it "measured up" compared to others. I knew ahead of time that there's more to the overall strength than just the lock design itself..i guess i don't really know what i was trying to ask...chalk this up as a stupid rookie question i guess. I still feel like there's a more simple answer...like one design is inherently stronger than another regardless of how the rest of the knife is built..but i guess that's impossible to say.

[Evil D]

Of course i have my own opinion...i didn't post this thread to talk about my opinion, i posted it to ask about everyone elses. Once it became clear that there's no simple answer, i posted my opinion since someone else commented that maybe i should look to a fixed blade if strength is all i care about. I didn't contradict myself...by the time i posted my opinion, the point of the thread was lost (whatever it was supposed to be).

[dj moonbat]

Look, it's like this:

Spyderco makes many, many lockback knives. Only a fool would say that the lockback lacks strength because of the Ladybug, or that the lockback reigns supreme because of the Chinook.

As evidenced in the couple sentences above, different makers will construct knives of varying tolerances and heft, such that one cannot really find out the "strongest" thing.