No more H1 fixed blades?

[hunterseeker5]

So you are telling me that Tom Krein is the only guy who can put a full flat grind on a knife at an almost reasonable price in the world? Sounds more like an excuse than a reason to me.

Overall I think the lack of interest in the H1 fixed blades, and potentially the whole H1 line, is a baseless fear that somehow such a huge advantage is with an equally large trade off. I also think that the previous line of H1 fixed blades was, sorry Sal, a bit flaccid. The Jumpmaster is perfect for its application, but the full serrated edge, high price, and giant sheepsfoot blade limit its applications. The Rocksalt looked and performed fabulously, but its price was a bit high for a work knife and a 1/8" thick blade didn't help especially when put toe to toe with the Kershaw Outcast. The warrior is, at that price, pretty much a collectors piece.
So really working knife duty for the H1 fixed blade lineup fell on the caspain salt and the aqua salt. The caspian salt, while a bit shocking to the uninitiated, probably can be recognized as one of the best dive knives in the world. That said being double edged makes it a poor choice for a work knife and illegal in quite a few places. That leaves you with the aqua salt which, to the uninitiated, is grotesquely ugly and looks cheaply made to boot. People concerned about its longevity could easily point out its less than impressive tang as well. My better half complained that it looked like an Ikea knife. You have to remember that we are all here because we are aficionados, and we get the spyderco aesthetic and trust Sal's design, but to get a real hit you need something that will grab the attention of the average consumer. The aquasalt was not an inspiring design, nor bizarre enough to grab attention for that reason alone. I still think there is room in the market for just such an item, but we are waiting for an inspired design to grab people's attention. Having operated in emergency situations in and around water I can tell you for a fact that there is no substitute for a fixed blade. PERIOD. I am waiting for the right product; if you build it they will come.

[The Deacon]

No, Tom Krein is probably not the only one, but he had a reputation for both quality work and reliability. Finding someone you'd trust to regrind one knife is one thing, finding someone you'd trust to do 600 of them is a whole 'nother ballgame.

You complain about the price of the Rock Salt, but a large part of that cost is the steel. The knife you compare it to unfavorably is tool steel, which rusts rather easily and, while the coating may help keep the sides of the blade from rusting, it does not protect the edge.

You complain about the serrations on the Jumpmaster, ignoring the fact that H-1 is at its best when serrated. Not to mention that a plain edge version is made for the Japanese market, so you can get one if you really want one, and pay someone to reshape and regrind it to your tastes.

You complain about the looks of the Aqua Salt. Spyderco does not build knives for looks, they build them to work. You say you trust Sal's designs, yet your comments about the tang belie that.

Your comment "I am waiting for the right product; if you build it they will come" assumes "they" share your tastes. I can virtually assure you that I, for one, do not. But then, I know mine are not those of the average Spyderco fan, so perhaps you should start a thread asking for a show of interest in something fairly specific. That's how more than a few Spydercos have come into being. At the very least, the results may give you an idea whether your desire for something that's "bizarre" and "inspiring" is shared by enough others here to arouse Spyderco's interest in the project.

[SaturnNyne]

You complain about the price of the Rock Salt, but a large part of that cost is the steel. The knife you compare it to unfavorably is tool steel, which rusts rather easily and, while the coating may help keep the sides of the blade from rusting, it does not protect the edge.

You complain about the serrations on the Jumpmaster, ignoring the fact that H-1 is at its best when serrated. . . .

You complain about the looks of the Aqua Salt. Spyderco does not build knives for looks, they build them to work. You say you trust Sal's designs, yet your comments about the tang belie that.

Exactly.



Don't take this too harshly, I'm just trying to respond to some of the points raised, though I'll admit some of them I find a little exasperating due to repetition. Bear with me, and apologies if I sound ruffled.

I also think that the previous line of H1 fixed blades was, sorry Sal, a bit flaccid. The Jumpmaster is perfect for its application, but the full serrated edge, high price, and giant sheepsfoot blade limit its applications. The Rocksalt looked and performed fabulously, but its price was a bit high for a work knife and a 1/8" thick blade didn't help especially when put toe to toe with the Kershaw Outcast. The warrior is, at that price, pretty much a collectors piece. . . .

So really working knife duty for the H1 fixed blade lineup fell on the caspain salt and the aqua salt. . . .

That leaves you with the aqua salt which, to the uninitiated, is grotesquely ugly and looks cheaply made to boot. People concerned about its longevity could easily point out its less than impressive tang as well. My better half complained that it looked like an Ikea knife.

Let's see: too expensive, too expensive, too expensive, looks too cheap, disagree with design. So, what you're asking for is a knife that uses the same steel, is manufactured in the same place (because it has to be), uses more of the steel (in the case of the Aqua's tang), looks more expensive (Aqua), and costs less? And you want it to be an inspiring and impressive looking design because these things are needed in a hard use working knife? I'm not following.

The reality is that the Rock Salt (and to some lesser degree maybe the Aqua?) is gone largely/primarily because of the criticism you raise: it cost too much to be a big seller; more than they wanted it to cost. That's why it's supposed to be reintroduced, but at a lower price. How will they do this? Cheaper steel. Not cheap steel (VG-10), just cheaper steel, because H1 is expensive stuff, especially when you use it in a long, wide, curvy, full tang design like the Rock.

(I'm really hoping the Aqua is going to be reintroduced too, in VG-10 with a more refined sheath design! No changes in aesthetics or tang necessary.)

You have to remember that we are all here because we are aficionados, and we get the spyderco aesthetic and trust Sal's design, but to get a real hit you need something that will grab the attention of the average consumer.

True, they often cater to the aficionado market, partly because that's the only market that will shell out for some of the things they make at the quality that they make them. We get the company's aesthetic and have faith in the designs, so we buy them. However, part of Spyderco's aesthetic and way of doing things is that they grab the consumer's attention with high quality and effective designs, not by making something that is simply attention-grabbing. This way of doing things results in plenty of hits, and an about-face in that regard is simply not how they do things. They makes knives in a certain way and to a certain standard, and the result is that they cannot always offer bargains and chase after these average consumers at every niche. The average consumer should be catered to as well, but you're probably asking it of the wrong company for a knife of this type. If you're asking them because they're the only one who can provide the extra benefits you want... well those benefits aren't a free bonus, they're the reason they cost more.

The average consumer who needs a work knife (needs, not enthusiastic about buying one) has price as a high/top priority. That's entirely understandable and nothing to dismiss. But, if that consumer says they need a fixed blade for water rescues and they want something cheap, fancy, sizable, tough, made of H1, preferably flat ground, preferably looking like it was designed by Gil Hibben (exaggerating :) )... there's just no good answer to that, except that maybe they can be accommodated on price, but they'll have to flex a little on everything else.

Having operated in emergency situations in and around water I can tell you for a fact that there is no substitute for a fixed blade. PERIOD. I am waiting for the right product; if you build it they will come.

Since it sounds like none of the Salts previously mentioned are deemed suitable, due to the reasons mentioned, emergency situations around water require a fixed blade that is both fancy and cheap? Because the critical goals include 1) being able to accomplish the task effectively, 2) being able to treat it abusively and accept a risk of loss, and 3) being able to impress coworkers with how it clearly did not come from Ikea? I'm not following. :confused:

It sounded like you would have been satisfied with an H1 Mule. Would that have been an example of the right product you're waiting for then? If so, what is it about the Aqua that makes it not right, aside from looks and perceived weakness? In most cases, an Aqua is going to be a more capable hard use knife than a Mule. And if you're cutting someone free in an emergency, I hope you're looking at what you're cutting and the person you're saving, not at the knife you're using; and I hope your buddies are also focusing on what they're doing, not looking at your knife, wondering how much it cost, and wishing their knife were as pretty.

In short, it sounds like you want a tough but cheap knife, a pretty knife, and at least one of them should be H1. I don't think you're going to get all of what you want in a single knife though.

As for the tang thing, that seems to be this week's complaint based on the threads I've read, but maybe I've just become overly sensitive to it at this point. Every so often, tang length on the injected frn models comes up and someone complains about how they're too weak and should be upgraded to the full tang necessary to make it a useable knife. The answer is the same as it's ever been: how many Aqua and Moran tangs have you broken? How many of them do you know of being broken? The company's official stance is that this concern expressed by some is "poppycock and malarkey." Is it Janich who backs it up with a kiss? :p

That said, I'd be interested to hear more about usage of knives in water emergencies, particularly how fixed and folders compare and what tasks they get used for, if you feel like sharing. I would assume that what you say about a fixed blade being vastly preferable is true, but I'm curious to hear more about it from someone who's done it. No pressure though, I'm not asking you to provide us with a long rescue story session. :)


Aqua Tang. I could go for some delicious, fruity Aqua Tang right now! I'll leave any Aqua Tang Hunger Force jokes to someone else. :D

[hunterseeker5]

You are running around in circles, rather than trying to see the point.

This is America, and we have the most sophisticated production capabilities in the world. It is simply absurd to suggest that no person or facility would be capable of producing flat ground H1 blades. I hope you realize that. I don't know if you yourself are involved in any production industry, but to suggest that our capabilities here are so limited is simply false.

The original MSRP of the rock salt was over 250$ IIRC. This was reduced as the knife went out of production, and towards the end of its run could be gotten for a much more reasonable 120$ or so. If the price had started around there, and more shops kept it in that price range, I suspect the rock salt would have been a bigger success. I realize a major part of its cost was the steel though, hence a design which allowed material to be conserved would have been beneficial. There is no getting around just how deep that blade was cut. As far as the comparison to other blades in its size class you are again missing the entire point. For a H1 knife to be a real success it needs to appeal to more than just the marine industry. It has to compete favorably with far less rust resistant steels in terms of both performance and price. While it was more than a match for them in terms of its cutting ability, and obviously outstripped them in corrosion resistance, the price point was too high to draw large numbers of customers away from their other large fixed blades. Until you realize that to be a true success you have to expand beyond the niche market of watersports, and start drawing customers away from your competitors less versatile products, you will never have a stunning success. THAT is why I brought up the Kershaw Outcast.

By "better" I assume you mean harder? You do realize the two are not even close to synonymous right? You also didn't address the limited applications of, serrated or not, a giant sheepsfoot blade. Some of us like and need a point. Again the design appeals to its niche, but you would have a hard time convincing me that what is effectively a sheepsfoot cleaver, when the serrations are removed, is going to compete with other blade shapes.

I had said "people concerned about its longevity could easily point out its less than impressive tang," not "I think the blade will pull out of the handle." You see the difference? It is simply one of many concerns that other people I have talked with have expressed about the knife. Using the old "spyderco doesn't build knives for looks" argument is pretty sad. Just because sypderco doesn't build them to be pretty doesn't mean they don't have an eye for the aesthetic. Your line is really just a sad excuse for not updating a model whose flaccid sales clearly indicate is in need of something. I would also add that there clearly are touches of design for the sheer sake of visual appeal on quite a few of spyderco's knives. If looks really didn't matter knives needn't be offered in all sorts of interesting colors and patterns. The digital cammo of the military line demonstrates that creating something with a little more visual appeal clearly sells products, and to say that spyderco is somehow completely above it indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of the business. I absolutely do believe that spyderco puts function before form, but does not ignore it entirely. As far as the second half of your statement "build them to work" goes, you most definitely can increase cutting power by altering the blade shape, and its angle relative to the handle. Spyderco of all companies has demonstrated this quite dramatically in some of their models like the dodo or civilian to name some of the more extreme examples. Another excellent example of this is the khukri; if you have ever wielded a proper one you know exactly what I mean.

It is a mistake to assume that your tastes are necessarily broadly accepted, but at the same time also a mistake to assume you are alone in your views. Usually the truth is somewhere in-between. Sal is known for coming up with quite a few hit designs, but as the list of discontinued models grows it is clear not all are are a success. Absence of proof however is not proof of absence, yet it seems some of the loudest voices here exist to stifle potential creativity. This thread was started for something fairly specific: a call for a new H1 fixed blade knife. Since it seems you are here to argue that the existing H1 fixed blades were as good as spyderco can do, and yet they weren't good enough clearly since they are being discontinued. There is still clearly demand in the market for fixed blades, so this isn't an impossible task. The challenge is to make something that meets the following criteria:
Roughly meets the necessary price point (I'll put it at retail value of ~100$, with the MSRP obviously being higher)
Looks wacky, yet attractive and effective in that uniquely spyderco way
Cuts very well for both its size and weight
Durable design (this is especially problematic because all the H1 designs have been 1/8" thick, with the exception of the warrior, probably due to material cost constraints)
Minimal material used to maintain price (critical to this is the amount of waste created. I assume the knives are laser blanked, so when they are being cut out of a sheet the design needs to minimize waste by fitting next to the previous blade as closely as possible.)
Grind design that can be done by the specific Japanese production facility

And I am sure there are others I have missed...... (and probably some assumptions about production capabilities I am incorrect about)
My real thought on the idea is a knife which has a downward curving blade, much like a small khukri. Aside from being a proven design which maximizes cutting power, it would allow the blade being cut out to fit snugly below the previously cut out blade minimizing waste. The downward contour needn't be huge either.....
When it comes to the handle I would definitely prefer to see full tang, and I think the caspain salt proves it can be done without too much added cost.
Perhaps I'll spend some time drawing something up and get back to you.


On one final note taking an impromptu survey of a few knife fans I know, almost all of them thought that H1 had sub-par performance as a blade steel as a trade-off for rust resistance. I think spyderco really doesn't advertise enough that, while it isn't s90v for sure, it is a good steel. Also the work hardening of the blade is a very cool feature that, if advertised, I think would draw quite a bit of attention.


*edit*
I rushed out this response only to see SaturnNyne's response pop up. I'll respond to your comments later.

[hunterseeker5]

Let's see: too expensive, too expensive, too expensive, looks too cheap, disagree with design. So, what you're asking for is a knife that uses the same steel, is manufactured in the same place (because it has to be), uses more of the steel (in the case of the Aqua's tang), looks more expensive (Aqua), and costs less? And you want it to be an inspiring and impressive looking design because these things are needed in a hard use working knife? I'm not following.

The reality is that the Rock Salt (and to some lesser degree maybe the Aqua?) is gone largely/primarily because of the criticism you raise: it cost too much to be a big seller; more than they wanted it to cost. That's why it's supposed to be reintroduced, but at a lower price. How will they do this? Cheaper steel. Not cheap steel (VG-10), just cheaper steel, because H1 is expensive stuff, especially when you use it in a long, wide, curvy, full tang design like the Rock.

(I'm really hoping the Aqua is going to be reintroduced too, in VG-10 with a more refined sheath design! No changes in aesthetics or tang necessary.)

I think this criticism is to some degree fair, but at the same time you are mixing what I want in a design for myself with with I would expect would be required of a design to be a big seller. To your credit it is probably mostly a lack of clear distinction between the two in my writing. My repeated call for a less expensive H1 knife comes from the fact that when you are out using a tool, especially in an emergency situation, you WILL abuse it. I don't want to be out there worrying that if I slip and put this knife edge into a rock, or if I snap the blade, that I will have just crippled a 200$+ knife. I figure that about 100-120$ shipped is about the limit of what I will pay for such a knife. Some companies, one in particular I can think of, have proved that you can charge significantly more for a working knife..... but especially that brand I tend to see in the hands of collectors not professionals. Am I being picky and demanding here? Definitely. I ask a lot and expect a lot, but since we are talking about a knife that doesn't exist yet I don't think it would make sense to set your sights short. Fair?

True, they often cater to the aficionado market, partly because that's the only market that will shell out for some of the things they make at the quality that they make them. We get the company's aesthetic and have faith in the designs, so we buy them. However, part of Spyderco's aesthetic and way of doing things is that they grab the consumer's attention with high quality and effective designs, not by making something that is simply attention-grabbing. This way of doing things results in plenty of hits, and an about-face in that regard is simply not how they do things. They makes knives in a certain way and to a certain standard, and the result is that they cannot always offer bargains and chase after these average consumers at every niche. The average consumer should be catered to as well, but you're probably asking it of the wrong company for a knife of this type. If you're asking them because they're the only one who can provide the extra benefits you want... well those benefits aren't a free bonus, they're the reason they cost more.

The average consumer who needs a work knife (needs, not enthusiastic about buying one) has price as a high/top priority. That's entirely understandable and nothing to dismiss. But, if that consumer says they need a fixed blade for water rescues and they want something cheap, fancy, sizable, tough, made of H1, preferably flat ground, preferably looking like it was designed by Gil Hibben (exaggerating )... there's just no good answer to that, except that maybe they can be accommodated on price, but they'll have to flex a little on everything else.

All very true. Then again for the pure work knife consumer a 20$ machete is probably the first choice if you are looking to go cheap. When I said spice up the design I wasn't thinking anything near as fancy as I think you might be. What can I say, I get the look of the aquasalt, but nobody else around me does. On the flip side of the coin the caspian salt pretty clearly shows that intriguing design and a full tang need not be phenomenally expensive. I would also like to note that, so far as I am aware, the model will continue its production. As I said before the blade itself, and some elements of the handle, are a little too scuba oriented for general purpose use but I think it illustrates the point.

Since it sounds like none of the Salts previously mentioned are deemed suitable, due to the reasons mentioned, emergency situations around water require a fixed blade that is both fancy and cheap? Because the critical goals include 1) being able to accomplish the task effectively, 2) being able to treat it abusively and accept a risk of loss, and 3) being able to impress coworkers with how it clearly did not come from Ikea? I'm not following.

*sigh* I think I covered this, but I'll reiterate. 1) yes 2) yes (although I do try to take excellent care of my tools) 3) You say it as if having a somewhat attractive knife were a sin. I suggested the problem with the aquasalt is that people don't find it intriguing or attractive enough to pick up. Obsessing over appearance is a mistake, but as I explained before.........

My desire for an H1 mule line is totally separate from my desire for a working fixed blade. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough.

I don't want to bring other companies into this specifically by name, but for 135$ I recently acquired a knife of S30V which meets all of my criteria, but for the rust resistance of course, and is a full 1/4" thick. I am asking for similar done in a steel half the thickness, and if you compare the H1 line to the S30V line here at spyderco I think you will notice that the H1 knives cost less for more knife. (its hard to compare directly because of feature differences, but one example which stands out is the native)

That said, I'd be interested to hear more about usage of knives in water emergencies, particularly how fixed and folders compare and what tasks they get used for, if you feel like sharing. I would assume that what you say about a fixed blade being vastly preferable is true, but I'm curious to hear more about it from someone who's done it. No pressure though, I'm not asking you to provide us with a long rescue story session.

You must forgive me but I would rather not "pull a Strider" so to speak by inflating myself or my abilities in any way on the forums. What you do is something anyone else would have done in the same circumstances, had they the same training. I would be happy to discuss it with you via PM.

[Rambo241]

I'm getting ready to go work harden my Aqua Salt on some sheep today. Have to thin out the flock before winter hits so they don't eat the hay reserve. Wish I had the opportunity to take some pictures while doing so as I don't think I've ever seen this use for a Aqua before. I'll let you guys know how it turns out.

-Blaine

[The Deacon]

You are running around in circles, rather than trying to see the point.

No, the point is this.

Spyderco has been selling knives with H-1 blades for seven years now. The model that introduced it, the Salt I, is still in the lineup. Over the years, the folks on this forum have asked for a lot of different models to be made in H-1 and, probably as a result, many of them have been added to the lineup. Based on that, and on other new models and Sprint Run revivals that have materialized based on our suggestions, I'd have to say that Spyderco is extremely receptive to well thought out ideas which had forum support and which they found feasible.

Your attitude makes me think you may not be aware of it, but over at least six of the past seven years, we forumites have made numerous requests for a full flat ground H-1 blade. Those requests have always yielded similar comments from Sal, all to the effect that it was not feasible. It really does not matter if someone, somewhere, is capable of doing it. What matters is that the Japanese makers who build Spyderco's H-1 knives are unable or unwilling to grind them, or would only do so at a price that Spyderco feels would make them unsaleable. What may also matter is that the company that makes H-1 may not be willing to sell raw steel for export, or that Spyderco does not feel they could grind H-1 cost effectively in Golden. Given the number of times this has been requested, and the level of interest it has had in the past, I'm of the opinion that if Spyderco knew of a way to do it it would have been done by now.

Asking for something that's been shot down a dozen times before, often with explanations of why it cannot be done, and indignantly insisting that it "should be" possible, accomplishes nothing. Describing something that Spyderco actually is, or at least stands a good chance of being, capable of producing might. As an example, while a regular Mule in H-1 is not feasible, a Woodcrafter style Mule in H-1 might be, since it's hollow ground.

[hunterseeker5]

Ok for the sake of moving past the mule argument I'll accept that it isn't reasonable for the time being. Does this mean you accept that there is potential for a fixed blade design which would be reasonably popular, effective, and relatively inexpensive to produce?

[The Deacon]

Not really, For me to accept that, you'd have to provide some concrete suggestions as to how it can be accomplished. Keep in mind that we're dealing with a Japanese steel that the manufacture may still be unwilling to sell to other than Japanese makers and that having knives made in Japan is 10% to 20% more expensive than making them here. Consider that not everyone shares your enthusiasm for H-1 fixed blades and that, in point of fact, many here actually prefer carbon steel for fixed blades. Consider that in their 30 years of designing and building knives Spyderco has yet to have a really successful fixed blade. And consider that, given the number of white water enthusiasts who carry Spyderco folders, your personal belief that a fixed blade is better for water emergencies may be less than universal.

[hunterseeker5]

Yes its very interesting.... I have noticed that spyderco seems to have a problem selling their fixed blades. There is no denying that folders are more popular. As far as the design strengths go there really still is no debate, as I am sure you are aware. Well I guess then it would fall on those of us who want to see the product, namely me, to come up with something that I think would do better. Its the "money where your mouth is" stage. :P If only I knew the dimensions of the sheets the blades were to be cut out of.

[psychophipps]

One thing to keep in mind is the fact that a full tang is pretty much unnecessary. Mora puts out a bargain basement priced line of knives that get huge kudos from a bunch of hard-use folks, including regular use for batoning through wood, and their knives are not full-tang.

Don't buy the hype, guys. Full tang is an option, not a necessity.

[psychophipps]

Yes its very interesting.... I have noticed that spyderco seems to have a problem selling their fixed blades. There is no denying that folders are more popular. As far as the design strengths go there really still is no debate, as I am sure you are aware. Well I guess then it would fall on those of us who want to see the product, namely me, to come up with something that I think would do better. Its the "money where your mouth is" stage. :P If only I knew the dimensions of the sheets the blades were to be cut out of.

I think that it's an issue of not reading the market well, honestly. There is a large disconnect between the fixed blade market, which strongly trends towards more of a "hard tool use" requirement, and the folder market that has a completely different set of aesthetic and cost-benefit analysis factors. Folders can rely much more strongly on Gucci steels and funky-but-cool lines than a hard-use fixed blade which tends to more strongly be seen as a tool first, and something cool to show off as a very strong second.
With this in mind, why would most people drop $330 on a Temperance 2 to go out in the fields and woods to kick the crap out of when they can buy a $30 Mora (or a $150 Fallkniven, or a $85 Rant, or a....) that will take the same abuse?

[Bill1170]

I just had a thought regarding the difficulty of FFG on H1 steel. It could be done by EDM. Probably prohibitive, but doable. EDM would not confer any work-hardness to the edge, something grinding seems to do.

[Rambo241]

Well, we butchered two rams today. My aqua salt did really well IMO. The blade shape was just about perfect with it's continuous belly. It made skinning very easy. Wool is tuff stuff and will actually dull your knife pretty fast, so you always try to keep your contact with it at a minimum. The tip did probably sixty percent of the work and did it pretty well. Since the tip kind of angles down, it is not amazing at puncturing or penetrating but it wasn't horrible at it ether, somewhere in the middle ground. I touched up the edge briefly between the two rams, but the aqua still had a very workable edge on it after each. I just wanted it to be top notch to help skin the second ram. The steel rolled in a couple of spots that made contact with bone (The tip and middle of the belly). As far as the handle goes, I usually like full tang designs, but this time I was happy not to have to worry about getting blood under the scales. It looks like the sides of the blade scratch fairly easy, but I'm not sure if that is from the wool or if when it was taken in and washed someone used a rough brush to wash it off... Anyway, I was very happy with the Aqua's performance, and while I would still like for it to be ffg and full tang, I couldn't see how ether of those would have been more advantages for this particular use IMHO. Good job Spyderco! :D

-Blaine

[SteelDragon]

why would most people drop $330 on a Temperance 2 to go out in the fields and woods to kick the crap out of when they can buy a $30 Mora (or a $150 Fallkniven, or a $85 Rant, or a....) that will take the same abuse?

$330 for a Temperance 2 :eek: You need to shop around, I got 2 for that price a few months back.

[psychophipps]

$330 for a Temperance 2 :eek: You need to shop around, I got 2 for that price a few months back.

I was keeping things at the MSRP level for comparison purposes. You can also get the other named knives at a drastically reduced cost with some shopping around.

[SaturnNyne]

Ok, starting to get a clearer idea of what you mean. I'll just respond to a few points.

and towards the end of its run could be gotten for a much more reasonable 120$ or so. If the price had started around there, and more shops kept it in that price range, I suspect the rock salt would have been a bigger success.

I think it's true that it would have done significantly better if its price had been around where it was at the end, which I think got as low as about $107. I think the problem with that is just that the final prices on it were probably more or less cost from dealers who wanted to clear out a slow mover that had been discontinued. Then at that price it became a hot item, then it was gone, and now people pay outrageous sums to get one—funny how it works. But it wouldn't have ever been made if they thought it would have to be sold at cost to move it. I also think that $100 is probably an important target on a big, tough chopper that will see some hard use (and of course less would be much better still). If I ever bought one, I'd only buy it to use as intended, no matter the cost, but I'd sure be more likely to get it for that purpose if it didn't cost more than every other knife I have.

Hopefully the VG-10 version will be able to come in under 100 and be the kind of big seller the H1 version couldn't be. For what it's worth, VG-10 is extremely corrosion resistant for such a high performance steel, so it very likely might be a good enough replacement even in harsh environments. Not perfect, but good.

I had said "people concerned about its longevity could easily point out its less than impressive tang," not "I think the blade will pull out of the handle." You see the difference?

True, that's a difference, and it's an unfortunate problem. But I think a problem is what that common view is, not a user preference that should dictate design. If the company started making worse knives (heavier and less well balanced due to excessive tang that makes no difference to performance) because of public misperception, it wouldn't be in the spirit of the company. Although, they should perhaps add a section to edge-u-cation about the strength of their partial tang designs.

I would also add that there clearly are touches of design for the sheer sake of visual appeal on quite a few of spyderco's knives. If looks really didn't matter knives needn't be offered in all sorts of interesting colors and patterns.

Certainly true, the upscale models have some flourishes (not as many as some/most other companies, but some), but there usually aren't too many in the more work oriented designs. I don't consider colors in the same category since they're a very cost effective way to appeal to the preferences of a wider customer base. In some cases, the colors are also functional.

it seems some of the loudest voices here exist to stifle potential creativity.

That's an understandable perception, and I think I might feel the same way if I saw these kinds of responses. But, as Paul said, it's mostly just that the loudest voices have been here a long time, already had variations on this discussion multiple times over, and have heard the official word on them from the powers in charge. This forum abounds with creativity and there's no end to wishes and requests. When they're viable, they're generally welcomed. When they're not, they're met with an established explanation of why they're not.

Since it seems you are here to argue that the existing H1 fixed blades were as good as spyderco can do, and yet they weren't good enough clearly since they are being discontinued.

I'd prefer to say that the prices were clearly not good enough. The models themselves seemed to gain favorable reactions from those who did buy them, so I don't think the knives themselves are much to blame.

Durable design (this is especially problematic because all the H1 designs have been 1/8" thick, with the exception of the warrior, probably due to material cost constraints)

Is there a durability problem with the Salts? I think their record has been quite good in that regard. [Cue the tractor story and bent blade photo.] The "I want Spyderco to make thicker blades" discussion seems popular on non-brand-specific knife forums, but I don't think the company is very interested in making their knives better suited to do things they're not intended to do at the expense of what they're meant for; they're mostly willing to concede those sales to companies with different priorities. That doesn't mean that they're weak and will shatter if abused, just that they're knives and don't want to also be something else in the way that some others are. That doesn't mean that a sharpened pry bar is never called for, just like not all knives should be 1/4" thick, but it's not what this company traditionally does. That's not to say they won't do something like that at some point for those who want it, but it would be a break from the norm around here.

My real thought on the idea is a knife which has a downward curving blade, much like a small khukri. Aside from being a proven design which maximizes cutting power

It really sounds like you're describing the Rock Salt? Not to get back into the earlier discussion of selling the same things for less, but is it accurate to say that the Rock at a significantly lower price would be close enough to what you're looking for?

On one final note taking an impromptu survey of a few knife fans I know, almost all of them thought that H1 had sub-par performance as a blade steel as a trade-off for rust resistance. I think spyderco really doesn't advertise enough that, while it isn't s90v for sure, it is a good steel. Also the work hardening of the blade is a very cool feature that, if advertised, I think would draw quite a bit of attention.

The problem with this is just that steel is complicated. H1 is a good steel, but if they start hyping it as being a great overall performer to an audience with only a basic understanding of its characteristics, customers WILL be disappointed by the plain edge retention. It's not bad at all, but it's pretty noticeably not very good when compared to the kinds of steels that have become the baseline for many. Rather than hype it and give the wrong impression, they're honest about it and leave the customers to make up their own mind. And they do mention the work hardening in the descriptions, but they don't make a big deal about it because it would cause many to take it to mean more than it actually does, just as many more experienced users around here probably do. It's not a magic property that causes it to noticeably jump in performance every time it's sharpened; it's more like this steel's equivalent of a heat treat, except it continues to change a little even after manufacture.

[SaturnNyne]

Am I being picky and demanding here? Definitely. I ask a lot and expect a lot, but since we are talking about a knife that doesn't exist yet I don't think it would make sense to set your sights short. Fair?

Fair enough. I hope you'll also agree it's fair when we relay information from previous discussions about the feasibility of some of the ideas. I'm also not entirely certain the knife in question doesn't exist since it seems like the Rock comes pretty close? But...

On the flip side of the coin the caspian salt pretty clearly shows that intriguing design and a full tang need not be phenomenally expensive.

Perhaps something to consider in the future might be a small fixed blade made as economically as possible in a style similar to the Caspian, with a more typical blade and full scales added. Or maybe just a new variation on the Caspian, with normal sheath and standard blade.

When I said spice up the design I wasn't thinking anything near as fancy as I think you might be.

Probably true, though I didn't have anything specific in mind. I realize that the designs of the Rock and Caspian are inherently interesting, while the Aqua is more mundane (though I still think it's a cool looking standard knife in yellow; in black it looks like an ikea knife...).

What can I say, I get the look of the aquasalt, but nobody else around me does.

I get the look of the Aqua, but I don't think it ever occurred to me that others would or wouldn't. I just don't think the kind of person who would buy it for its intended use would be swayed that much by the appearance of it, or at least not as much as the collector audience is. I think it looks good enough that if it were priced right it would be purchased by those who want what it offers.

3) You say it as if having a somewhat attractive knife were a sin. I suggested the problem with the aquasalt is that people don't find it intriguing or attractive enough to pick up. Obsessing over appearance is a mistake, but as I explained before.........

It's certainly no sin to have an attractive knife, it just seems like an existing knife is getting discounted due to it not being particularly attractive. Wanting a non-existent knife to look a certain way is one thing, but rejecting an existing knife because it doesn't look a certain way is different.

My desire for an H1 mule line is totally separate from my desire for a working fixed blade. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough.

Got it. I think things did get a little convoluted, but I'm starting to understand.

if you compare the H1 line to the S30V line here at spyderco I think you will notice that the H1 knives cost less for more knife.

Is this true? Checking.... It's true, Native retails for $100. I'm really surprised that it's more than an Endura. All I can say is that the Native seems to be a poor price representative or S30 is still more expensive than expected, given that an Endura is larger, more complex, uses a greater variety of materials, and is imported from Japan. Or its msrp was created when it cost more and never adjusted? Then again, doesn't/didn't the US made Native sell at walmart for $45? So this might be a case where the circumstances create an unusual discrepancy between msrp and street price.

You must forgive me but I would rather not "pull a Strider" so to speak by inflating myself or my abilities in any way on the forums. What you do is something anyone else would have done in the same circumstances, had they the same training. I would be happy to discuss it with you via PM.

Heh, nicely put. Though it interests me, I partially wanted it to be available as potential input to the designers too, so I'll leave you alone on that. Thanks though. :)

One thing to keep in mind is the fact that a full tang is pretty much unnecessary. Mora puts out a bargain basement priced line of knives that get huge kudos from a bunch of hard-use folks, including regular use for batoning through wood, and their knives are not full-tang.

Don't buy the hype, guys. Full tang is an option, not a necessity.

True, and some of those Mora tangs are actually pretty tiny compared to the Aqua's. Still tough though! It's important to remember where the stress on the blade is actually going to be concentrated—it's not toward the back of your grip.

I think that it's an issue of not reading the market well, honestly. There is a large disconnect between the fixed blade market, which strongly trends towards more of a "hard tool use" requirement, and the folder market that has a completely different set of aesthetic and cost-benefit analysis factors.

Probably some truth in that, although I'm guessing it's more of a business decision than a misunderstanding of the market. Though Spyderco fixed blades do appeal to many, I think it's pretty clear that they're not trying to go after what seems to be a very large segment of the fixed blade market. Whether they actually should or not is another matter.

It looks like the sides of the blade scratch fairly easy, but I'm not sure if that is from the wool or if when it was taken in and washed someone used a rough brush to wash it off.

That's correct, H1 is known for being very easily scratched. The scratches could have come from sliding against bone, contact with dirt in the fleece, maybe the wool itself, a rough brush, or even just using the sheath. Staying pretty is definitely low on H1's priority list! :)

[Blerv]

Holy text wall of death :eek:

Its quite simple, buy H1 the way it comes or make it that way yourself. Since there are TONS of knife maker using it (sarcasm), I'm sure another maker has it in a preferable format.

H1 is a working steel. Hollow ground blades are great for this. Not everyone in the world wants to abolish grind lines.

Get over it. If you can't just make a company and strike up a deal with Hitachi to make better knives.

[captnvegtble]

holy text wall of death :eek:

lol!