C60 Massad Ayoob- 3 year review w/ 20+ pics

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mark greenman
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C60 Massad Ayoob- 3 year review w/ 20+ pics

#1

Post by mark greenman »

It’s thrusts like a push dagger. It’s cuts like a hawkbill. And it’s way more useful than either. It’s the C60 Massad Ayoob.

Image

A relatively unknown model in the Spyderco Lineup, the C60 Massad Ayoob is, in my opinion, the most practical SD/EDC knife ever created. I have been carrying one off and on for the last 3 years, and it has become my EDC standard for the past year. This review encompasses my experiences and observations about the c60 gleamed over the course of the last 3 years, as well as a comparison of knives I have on hand while I’m overseas.

Knives used in this review: Image

General Information:

The C60 Massad Ayoob was a designed by world-renowned self-defense expert Massad Ayoob. Here is Mr. Ayoob’s explanation of the design.

“The rationale was to get the blade directly in line with the radius bone of the forearm when the average human wrist was in the "locked" position, which puts the middle knuckle of the hand directly in line with the axis of the forearm.

This is what gives the C60 its superior stabbing accuracy that posters in this thread have mentioned, and it also gives tremendously more penetration, because it aligns the skeleto-muscular support structure of the arm with the point (number one), and therefore with anyone who knows how to put his weight behind a punch, gets the entire body's force going directly behind the point (number two).

As other posters have also noted, the handle-to-blade angle puts much more force behind a slash as well as a stab. Instead of the blade "skimming" over the target as it hits hard resistance such as bone, the 90 degree angle of the blade when held in reverse grip (and KEPT there by a handle shape that allows the thumb to lock it at that angle) the C60 is more likely to shear directly through whatever resistance it encounters. Because of the design features, something very similar happens with a slash from the conventional saber or pekal grasp.

As to the tip-down carry: I'm one of those early Spyderco fans whom Sal calls "Clipiteers," [:-)] who started their Spyderco experience with the original Police model, learned to open it with a pinch-snap, and discovered we could win bets beating guys with bali-songs and even "automatic knives" in opening speed. The pinch snap uses the gross motor movement of the closed hand instead of the more fine-motor skill of using the thumb to open the blade via the original design intent of the "Spyder-hole."


The knife first appeared in the 2001 lineup. It weighs 4.3 oz, has a 3 5/8” blade, with 3 3/8” cutting edge, is 5 1/16” closed, 8 7/16” open. It is a “Japan” knife, meaning the stamp on the VG10 tang does not say “seki city Japan.” The knife is extremely solid and precise, with no blade play whatsoever. The handle thickness is very thin, thinner than a D3, and the knife rides very low in the pocket.

Image

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Negative blade angle- The heart and soul of what makes the Ayoob such a great knife is the negative blade angle, or NBA. The NBA what gives the Ayoob its pistol shape. The advantage of the NBA is that it aligns the point of the blade with the bones in the wrist when in locked position, just like push dagger. It also makes transitioning from a handgun to a knife in an emergency much more intuitive.

Image

The NBA also puts the cutting edge far forward of the knuckles in the hand, giving the folder similar pull cutting power to that of a Hawkbill, but in a much more usable blade shape. NBA compared to an endura:

Image

EDC use- The knife is a VG10 spyderco clipit, with all the basic performance that entails, so I will focus on the specific, unique performance characteristics of the C60.

Pull Cutting vs. Hawkbill- by far the greatest EDC strength of the Ayoob is its pull cutting power. The NBA makes the knife very ergonomic in the hand. But, what makes it truly superb is the way the NBA synergizes with the full belly of the blade.

Here, without bending my wrist, I’m pressing about 1” of cutting edge onto the material.
Image

With cutting things on a flat surface with a Hawkbill, only the tip is in contact. This is a problem, because for many cutting tasks, the majority of the hawkbills blade cannot be used.
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In my experience, the Ayoob offers the same intuitive, pull cutting motion of the venerable hawkbill-I have used my SE Ayoob to disassemble an old couch, and cutting was effortless and ferocious. But, when cutting materials on a flat surface, the Ayoob is far superior to the hawkbill, because much more of the cutting edge can make contact with the material, since many times with a hawkbill only the tip can be used.

The NBA of the Ayoob provides all the surefire pull cutting performance of a hawkbill, but, because it has a full-bellied blade, the knife is far more versatile and effective for general use.

Use at high angles: The NBA of the Ayoob makes it very well suited for thrusting at shoulder height and above. But, on a more practical note, the NBA is also very comfortable for when your cutting things overhead, like wallpaper or plastic sheeting. I discovered this last winter, when I had to trim the plastic ventilation over my windows to size.

Here I am attempting to show you what I’m talking about. If this was plastic sheeting that I’m trying to cut overhead, I can press a good amount of cutting edge into the material without having to bend my wrist at an uncomfortable angle. If this were a hawkbill, only the tip would be in contact.
Image

With a conventional blade shape such as the Endura, the straight blade shape makes it a bit more uncomfortable to use at this angle. And because there is less blade in front of my knuckles, it’s hard to apply as much cutting edge as I would like.
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EDC conclusion- the Ayoob is easy to carry and Spyderco quality, with a large blade. So, it obviously can handle most every day carry scenarios. What’s cool though is that the negative blade angle allows the knife to have the specialized pull cutting characteristics of the hawkbill, without sacrificing any of its utility for general tasks.
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#2

Post by mark greenman »

SD: Although the C60 Massad Ayoob is a **** fine utility knife, it was designed and built for serious SD use. It’s a large, sharp knife, so I will skip to the specifics of what makes the C60 superior to other large, sharp knives.

Push Dagger Performance- Most knives require the user to bend their wrist to orient the point of the blade towards a target. This is especially apparent on the high line. Bending the wrist weakens your skeletal support structure, and generally reduces the potential power of the thrust.

Note how much I must bend the wrist for this highline on the dartboard with the Endura.
Image

The pistol grip shape of the Ayoob puts the point of the blade in line with the target when the wrist is in the locked position, much like the classic push dagger. Or, like pointing a pistol. Note how my wrist is locked and straight.
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Because the knife can be used with the wrist in the locked position, a powerful punch thrusting technique can be employed. The push dagger has proven so powerful and easy to use that it is specifically banned in numerous states, and even entire countries. Personally, the ability to have the same easy high performance offered by the push dagger, but in a perfectly legal, practical folding knife is the #1 design strength of the C60.

Various Grips: The Ayoob works extremely well in ¾ of the standard grips, but it sucks at RGEI.

In the classic Saber, the tip aligns with the bones of the wrist and forearm, like a push dagger.
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Reverse grip is very powerful and secure, and the NBA offers a bit of extra reach compared to a straight blade.
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With the endura, the wrist must be tweaked at an uncomfortable angle, and I lose a few inches of reach.
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The Ayoob feels pretty natural, although some wrist angling is needed.
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The Ayoob is the very best knife out there for Mercop’s IET technique. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... p?t=526776

The Ayoob in the IET grip allows for tremendous hooking power.
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Also, its ability to be used quickly and effectively as a impact weapon when in the closed position makes the knife ideal for Mercop’s “folder into the fight” philosophy. http://www.moderncombativesystems.com/d ... cles10.htm

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The Ayoob’s NBA totally sucks for Southnarc's Pkal style- even less range than normal, and feels really weird- stick with the P’kal for this style!
(can't include pic b/c of 10pic limit!)

Comparison to other MBC folder’s: It is my firm opinion that the C60 Ayoob is the most effective and practical of Spyderco’s MBC designs. Here I will contrast it with its peer competitors.

-Civilian/Matriarch: According to Dr. Snubnose's meat tests, the SE Ayoob vastly outperformed either the Matriarch or Civilian in cutting depth (3” for the Ayoob, 1.75” for civilian). Combined with the fact that the Ayoob dominates at thrusting, while S curve blade cannot thrust at all, or be used for any utilitarian function, the Ayoob the clearly a more effective and practical knife. The Ayoob slashes better, thrusts way better, and can actually be used as tool for EDC cutting chores, so you can actually explain why you’re carrying one.

-Chinook: The Chinook is the .44 magnum of Spyderco’s lineup. That’s also its chief weakness, as the bulk of the Chinook makes it an unlikely candidate for EDC for most users. After all, who wants to lug around a big and heavy .44 all day? The Chinook is wide, thick, and heavy pocket hog, weighing in at 5.8 oz’s. The Ayoob weighs 4.3oz, is much slimmer and narrower in the pocket, and outperforms the Chinook 3 in Doc Snubnosses Meat Tests(2”-2.75”.) Unless hardcore field use/ bushcraft likely, the Chinook rely isn’t a practical EDC for most applications, and is outperformed by the C60 in SD applications.

Yojimbo- The Yojimbo is a badass, highly practical knife. It has better ergo’s and is much, much more sheeple friendly than the Ayoob. It’s also much better at precision cutting due to the shape of the blade. However, I think the Ayoob’s longer, full belly blade is more versatile for general EDC cutting chores, because more of the blade can be used, whereas almost every cut with the Yojimbo must be initiated with the point of the blade. Also, I believe the C60 is a more versatile defensive knife, especially for the untrained user, due to the superior thrusting capability offered by the nearly 1” longer blade and push dagger wrist orientation. I am a firm believer in the MBC, targeted cutting philosophy for which the Yojimbo was built for, but training can and will break down under stress. The extremely effective and intuitive thrusting capability of the Ayoob could prove invaluable should training break down and cruder techniques come into play, especially at the high line. Although the Yojimbo outperforms the Ayoob in slicing power, getting 3.75” to the Ayoob’s 3.” the Ayoob manages this with a SE, saber ground blade, which testifies to the power of the negative blade angle. That being said, the Yo is still in my top 5 favorite carry knives.

P’kal- the P’kal is the fastest, nastiest folder I own. Used as designed, it’s going to work as designed. The problem is that it is only comfortable to hold in the edge-in orientation, making it highly impractical for EDC use, and also means that it can’t be used in the more legally defensive MBC style. Much like the civilian and Matriarch, it’s really only good for SD, which, of the 1001 uses of a knife, is the least likely. Additionally, the ball lock and wave combo are very, very easy to open, so my P’kal has a nasty habit of opening in the pocket, once resulting in a cut that missed the vein in my wrist by a few mm. The lack of utility, and danger to the user makes the P’kal an impractical SD knife, because I’m unlikely to be carrying it when I actually need it.

Weaknesses of the design- for all the coolness of the C60 Ayoob, the knife does have some glaring weaknesses.

-Slippery: the thin, aluminum handle of the Ayoob can be slippery as ****, especially when drawing the knife from the pocket. I have accidently dropped/thrown the knife on several occasions due the lack of traction. For this reason, my EDC Ayoob is coated in 3MStairwell grip tape. With the added texture, the knife is totally secure in the hand.
-Handle width- the super slim handle of the Ayoob makes it a great IWB carry piece, but the thinness of the handle makes the knife a poor choice for hammer grip fans. When held in a firm hammer grip, the handle twists a bit too sideways in the palm, causing the point to turn to the 11 o’clock. It’s a dream in the saber grip, but if you don’t like saber grip, this could be a serious issue. A wider g10 handle would fix this instantly.
Image
-Not Snag free- The tip down orientation of the blade, combined with the low rider pocket clip and jimping on the spine, can combine to form a dangerous snag risk. The spine jimping has occasionally caught the top of my pocket and snagged, preventing me from drawing the knife. I now carry the folder IWB. IWB carry, or a tip up clip, would prevent this problem.
Image
Saber Grind- The saber grind works very well in SE, but the PE model was a lousy performer until I had it sent to Tom Krein for a regrind. Obviously, FFG is the way to go.
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mark greenman
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#3

Post by mark greenman »

In conclusion, after 3 years of carrying the C60 Massad Ayoob, I can say that it is my favorite knife. It works well for any conceivable situation that I am likely to be in, and it looks great doing it. While the design has flaws, these are easily overcome with a few Mods.

In short, the Ayoob rocks!
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For more information:
http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showthre ... =meat+test
Meat test
http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showthre ... =meat+test
Sprint thread!
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... p?t=437803
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#4

Post by Niles »

Thanks for the review! I've been wondering about this knife for a while now. I wish they made a smaller version though. As it is, it's just a bit too big for me to EDC. Me and my tiny hands :(
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#5

Post by stonyman »

Great review Mark! I think this model was light years ahead of the time of production. It's sad because this knife was an is a true gem. I hope Spyderco revisits this model again in the future. Take care and God Bless!
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#6

Post by Zendemic »

Great review! It really makes me want this knife! Too bad it 's discontinued. I agree though, a smaller, sprint version ( maybe around 3-3.5") in g-10 and FFG would absolutely rock :D .
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#7

Post by Donut »

That is a pretty awesome review, thank you!
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#8

Post by 224477 »

Make me wanna scream "gimme a sprint run" LOL! :)
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Glad you like your knife

#9

Post by KaliGman »

I am glad that you have found a knife that you like so much. As for me, the Ayoob is toward the bottom of my self-defense choices, in large part because of the negative blade angle. With "locked wrist" and 'two dimensional movement" cutting methodologies, the negative angle assists in maintaining edge contact, with a relatively small portion of the edge, on the target. In the "three dimensional rotation" and "flexible wrist" methodology used in my system and many others, it means that extreme wrist flexion is needed to draw the majority of the length of the edge of the knife across the target, rather than hitting with just a small portion of the edge or "sweet spot." Since, over the years of training, I have found that I can move much quicker and cut deeper while using the "three dimensional rotation" cutting methodology, I prefer blades that are more useful for this method. Of course, people have different methodologies, skill levels, body types, etc., and there is no "one size fits all" best self-defense folder for everyone. If the Ayoob fits your skill set, methodology, and body mechanics, I am glad for you. Have fun with it.
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#10

Post by chuck_roxas45 »

KaliGman wrote:I am glad that you have found a knife that you like so much. As for me, the Ayoob is toward the bottom of my self-defense choices, in large part because of the negative blade angle. With "locked wrist" and 'two dimensional movement" cutting methodologies, the negative angle assists in maintaining edge contact, with a relatively small portion of the edge, on the target. In the "three dimensional rotation" and "flexible wrist" methodology used in my system and many others, it means that extreme wrist flexion is needed to draw the majority of the length of the edge of the knife across the target, rather than hitting with just a small portion of the edge or "sweet spot." Since, over the years of training, I have found that I can move much quicker and cut deeper while using the "three dimensional rotation" cutting methodology, I prefer blades that are more useful for this method. Of course, people have different methodologies, skill levels, body types, etc., and there is no "one size fits all" best self-defense folder for everyone. If the Ayoob fits your skill set, methodology, and body mechanics, I am glad for you. Have fun with it.
Hey Gman, are the blade profiles and geometries you prefer substantially different from Doc Snubnose's picks?
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Blade choices

#11

Post by KaliGman »

chuck_roxas45 wrote:Hey Gman, are the blade profiles and geometries you prefer substantially different from Doc Snubnose's picks?
Hi Chuck,

There are some differences in Doc Snubnose's and my results. We do not cut with the exact same methodologies. Doc favors wharnies more than I do (I get good performance out ot them, but don't find them better or even as good as some other blade shapes in many of my cutting methods). Please note that neither Doc's or my "testing" data is truly scientific and repeatable, as we are doing hand held cutting and, though we try to minimize the discrepancies (force applied, type of medium cut, etc.) no human can hit at the same angle every time and with the same force. Hand held testing in a martial context by those who have trained in the martial use of blades is useful, but is not the end-all-be-all testing method. It is just part of the puzzle and a good place to start your own testing to see what knives recommended by those with some "expertise" work well for you. You will probably cut, in defensive/martial practice, differently than Doc or I will.

Sometimes weird stuff happens in testing, anyway, and sometimes results are surprising. Sometimes "similar" knives perform differently (especially if different people use them). The Ayoob has a negative angle and I don't like it much. However, somewhat of a handle curve is really necessary for the most proper "hand fit" in my martial use of a blade. Ed Schempp's Kris has a "negative blade angle" and curved handle, and I find it very good indeed in defensive use. Of course, I use it in the Cancer (crab) grip with my thumb on top of the bolster, and an Albo Kali Silat angle 3 cut can hit just at the back of the edge and then draw the edge along the target almost to the point. For a really interesting puzzler as far as performance, you should have been at my school yesterday when we were doing some photos for an upcoming magazine article on large fixed blades. The largest and what I thought was the most promising "cutting" Bowie of the test performed the worst in my cutting, while a smaller Bowie cut like a demon possessed chain saw. Both Bowies had the same spine thickness and were within an ounce of each other in weight. The big one cut some other medium well, but it hated denim. Both would shave hair cleanly. This is an "edge geometry" issue, I think, and I'll be looking into that a bit further, particularly the thickness of the blade just behind the actual sharpened edge.

Lastly, please note that things are relative, and there is a "good enough" zone. If your anatomical target is 1.8 inches inside the human body, is a 5 inch deep cut necessary or is a 2.5 inch deep cut sufficient? If I had the choice between a knife that cut adequately, was well balanced, a good fit for my hand, and with very lively handling in martial use, versus a less ergonomic, "brick" of a knife that cut deeper when I tested, but could not be handled as quickly and well in martial use, I would take the better handling knife. Of course, you have to make a decision as to what an "adequate" cut is, and you have to determine what style of blade and particular knife handles best for you.
"There is no weapon more deadly than the will." Bruce Lee

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#12

Post by tipoc »

Thanks for the review and the useful pics.

tipoc
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#13

Post by Mako109 »

Mark Greenman - thanks for the terrific review and the wonderful photos. I hope Spyderco does a sprint, same blade length, but with the subtle modifications you mentioned. G10, FFG would be perfect.
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#14

Post by HotSoup »

Excellent Review!

Can anyone say SPRINT RUN!!

Please!
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#15

Post by v8r »

Time for a Sprint Run!!!!!!!!!!
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#16

Post by Evil D »

ClusterFlux wrote:Great review! It really makes me want this knife! Too bad it 's discontinued. I agree though, a smaller, sprint version ( maybe around 3-3.5") in g-10 and FFG would absolutely rock :D .
Sounds like a great idea to me.
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#17

Post by HotSoup »

Why smaller?

The near 5" blade is what makes it so awesome!
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#18

Post by Mako109 »

HotSoup wrote: The near 5" blade is what makes it so awesome!
I concur 100%!
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#19

Post by chuck_roxas45 »

KaliGman wrote:Hi Chuck,

There are some differences in Doc Snubnose's and my results. We do not cut with the exact same methodologies. Doc favors wharnies more than I do (I get good performance out ot them, but don't find them better or even as good as some other blade shapes in many of my cutting methods). Please note that neither Doc's or my "testing" data is truly scientific and repeatable, as we are doing hand held cutting and, though we try to minimize the discrepancies (force applied, type of medium cut, etc.) no human can hit at the same angle every time and with the same force. Hand held testing in a martial context by those who have trained in the martial use of blades is useful, but is not the end-all-be-all testing method. It is just part of the puzzle and a good place to start your own testing to see what knives recommended by those with some "expertise" work well for you. You will probably cut, in defensive/martial practice, differently than Doc or I will.

Sometimes weird stuff happens in testing, anyway, and sometimes results are surprising. Sometimes "similar" knives perform differently (especially if different people use them). The Ayoob has a negative angle and I don't like it much. However, somewhat of a handle curve is really necessary for the most proper "hand fit" in my martial use of a blade. Ed Schempp's Kris has a "negative blade angle" and curved handle, and I find it very good indeed in defensive use. Of course, I use it in the Cancer (crab) grip with my thumb on top of the bolster, and an Albo Kali Silat angle 3 cut can hit just at the back of the edge and then draw the edge along the target almost to the point. For a really interesting puzzler as far as performance, you should have been at my school yesterday when we were doing some photos for an upcoming magazine article on large fixed blades. The largest and what I thought was the most promising "cutting" Bowie of the test performed the worst in my cutting, while a smaller Bowie cut like a demon possessed chain saw. Both Bowies had the same spine thickness and were within an ounce of each other in weight. The big one cut some other medium well, but it hated denim. Both would shave hair cleanly. This is an "edge geometry" issue, I think, and I'll be looking into that a bit further, particularly the thickness of the blade just behind the actual sharpened edge.

Lastly, please note that things are relative, and there is a "good enough" zone. If your anatomical target is 1.8 inches inside the human body, is a 5 inch deep cut necessary or is a 2.5 inch deep cut sufficient? If I had the choice between a knife that cut adequately, was well balanced, a good fit for my hand, and with very lively handling in martial use, versus a less ergonomic, "brick" of a knife that cut deeper when I tested, but could not be handled as quickly and well in martial use, I would take the better handling knife. Of course, you have to make a decision as to what an "adequate" cut is, and you have to determine what style of blade and particular knife handles best for you.
Thanks for very informative answer, Gman.
HotSoup wrote:Why smaller?

The near 5" blade is what makes it so awesome!
Yes, I'm all for a 4-5 inch blade length.
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#20

Post by SUDS »

Nice review mark greenman. I like the Photos!
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