S30V vs. ZDP 189

[nozh2002]

OK, Vassili, but do you agree with the other posters that S30V should be "toothier" than ZDP-189, because the latter is finer grained steel?

Well, CPM is made by PM process, so this tooth can not be bigger then 1-2 micron. Also there are not too much vanadium carbides in there V=4%. So I do not think it is really the case.

Most people consider much coarse then 1-2micron grid as a fine edge. For most Extra Fine DMT is in deed extra fine, but it is 4-6 microns. So tooth from grid will be bigger then what you are looking for.

This theory is more applicable to D2 which have huge carbides.

Thanks, Vassili.

[yosemite]

Vassili, it was stated that S30V has a rougher edge than ZDP-189 due to the microscopic makeup of the steel. Do you agree with this, or not? I trust you have a lot of experience with both steels, so am genuinely interested in your understanding.

[ChrisR]

yosemite - Vassili just answered that question ... to put his words into different English, he doesn't think that it would be very noticeable because the CPM process (how they make S30V) makes particles of 1-2 microns and that is very small - in comparison an extra fine DMT sharpening stone is 4-6 microns. Steels like D2 have larger carbides and are truly 'toothy'.

[SaturnNyne]

I'm sorry I returned too late to catch the inflammatory political content.

So what exactely is your experience with ZDP-189 and CPM S30V, how did you test it (I know you most likely did not, but worse to try to ask). What is exact results?

Because I clearly did quite some testing to find that ZDP189 at all points better then CPM S30V. I also rate all other steels etc.

Yes, pointing to the testing you've done and demanding I produce mine in order to earn my right to an opinion is one way to respond.... But I have done extensive testing of my own and my results for S30 are the same as yours plus a million, so there! :p

Seriously though, you're armed with numbers, you declare them gospel whenever anyone will listen, and you use them to beat down dissent. No, I have not tested zdp. I don't use my knives for knife testing, so I have not done that. If I used my knives for testing knives, I would perhaps find that zdp is a much better steel for putting up good results. If good results in tests were my goal, that would be exciting to me.

Your numbers don't invalidate the experiences of others, and my lack of numbers doesn't invalidate my experiences. So play nice, mate; you're not Knife Steel Moses bringing holy numbers down from the mountain. Your testing is good and interesting and helpful; I support it and I'm glad you do it. It's just your interpretation and presentation of the data (and not some Crucible marketing conspiracy) that causes the greater knife community to usually respond poorly.

Ok, my experience with the two steels. First off, I am not nearly as good a sharpener as you are. I've seen your videos and your results are awesome. Unfortunately, my skill, dedication, and equipment are not nearly up to yours. As a result, I do find zdp very noticeably more difficult to work with. This is not a fault with zdp and I'm certainly not trying to say it's a bad steel at all! But, zdp is a "higher cost" steel to me because it costs me a lot more time and physical effort. Higher cost is fine if the return is added benefit, but for some reason I've never gotten notably better edge retention out of zdp. It's just another better-than-decent steel I use, with some different properties from some of the others. It takes a good enough edge (but I have trouble getting a really great edge due to my sharpening limitations ), usually holds it reasonably well (but not better by enough to interest me, and maybe not always), and then requires a very noticeable amount of extra work to sharpen.

S30, on the other hand, seems to be a steel I get along with better than any other. I can put a good edge on it very easily, it cuts well, it doesn't frustrate me or consume excessive amounts of maintenance time, and it seems to hold its edge as well or better than anything else I use. I don't know why zdp falls short for me in my experiences with it, but it does, and my opinion on it is based on that experience.

I realize that's just my experience (just as your experience is just your experience), but for me it's just not a good deal; ZDP asks more of me than it gives back, while S30 does everything I ask of it, gives me a cheery hello in the morning, and tucks me in at night. S30V is my buddy. :) That said, I'm not unwilling to get a zdp blade, but I don't see it as a very significant point in a knife's favor over lesser steels that serve my purposes better overall. I recently got a ZDP Endura because it was super cheap and I liked the green scales; the steel was interesting to me, but in more of a "maybe this time it'll seem more worthwhile" way. ZDP has good steel snob appeal too. I actually like the knife a lot and I'm glad I got it, though I'm all sad faces after a confidence-bruising Sharpmaker session. I'd probably be happier with an Endura that had green scales and a VG10 blade that said ZDP on it.

So that's my experience with it. When someone else says that zdp works great for them and it's a perfect steel for their uses, I believe them, and I'm happy for them. But when someone says that zdp works great for them and is perfect for everyone else too, I don't believe it, because the world doesn't work like that, and my own experiences contradict that conclusion. ZDP is an arguably better steel than S30V, but it is not better on all points for all people, and S30 isn't worthless just because there are better steels and it was overhyped early on. Your zdp is obviously very good for uses, but my zdp is only so so for my uses. I do hope that one day I'll have the sharpening skills and resources to get along with ZDP a little better though. :)

[The General]

"CPM S30V was huge step back from CPM S60V"

Good grief, did you really type that rubbish? :rolleyes:

CPM 440V AKA S60V was a totally different steel to S30V. It was a much more difficult steel to sharpen, far more fragile and really not at all suited to even a moderately hard use knife. Only tip I ever broke on a Spyderco was with a S60V blade. It did not take much to do it either.

I am no fan of S30V to be honest, its not as bad a steel as some people say but I prefer VG10 over S30V any day of the week.

ZDP189 is in a different universe compared to S30V. Its a much better steel other than stain resistance and if you keep the edge angle at say 20 degree's per side, I doubt it would micro chip more than S30V. Course, my custom knives in S30V do not exhibit this problem. Its only the production knives that I have in S30V. Heat treat methods. I think S30V is not an easy steel to heat treat on a mass production level.

However, we are comparing Spyderco S30V and ZDP189 so I stand by my statements regarding Spyderco S30V and ZDP189.

In fact ZDP189 can take an angle of 15 degree's per side and hold up better than S30V does. This seems to be born out in testing. I know my UKPK at 15 degree's per side likes to micro chip and my ZDP189 Caly's have had no issues at all and they are incredibly sharp.

Seriously Vassili, you think you are the expert.

You are not, not by a long shot.

I have a great deal of experience and a lot of good relations with knife makers and companies. I don't beat everyone to death with what I have done, what I know, and talk quite rudely to others. I offer my opinion and enjoy a nice polite discussion. I respect others views however wrong they might be.

You are wrong with a lot of what you say. Stop claiming your little tests make fact and disprove the experience of many knife users in the real world.

[nozh2002]

I'm sorry I returned too late to catch the inflammatory political content.


Yes, pointing to the testing you've done and demanding I produce mine in order to earn my right to an opinion is one way to respond.... But I have done extensive testing of my own and my results for S30 are the same as yours plus a million, so there! :p

Seriously though, you're armed with numbers, you declare them gospel whenever anyone will listen, and you use them to beat down dissent. No, I have not tested zdp. I don't use my knives for knife testing, so I have not done that. If I used my knives for testing knives, I would perhaps find that zdp is a much better steel for putting up good results. If good results in tests were my goal, that would be exciting to me.

Your numbers don't invalidate the experiences of others, and my lack of numbers doesn't invalidate my experiences. So play nice, mate; you're not Knife Steel Moses bringing holy numbers down from the mountain. Your testing is good and interesting and helpful; I support it and I'm glad you do it. It's just your interpretation and presentation of the data (and not some Crucible marketing conspiracy) that causes the greater knife community to usually respond poorly.

Ok, my experience with the two steels. First off, I am not nearly as good a sharpener as you are. I've seen your videos and your results are awesome. Unfortunately, my skill, dedication, and equipment are not nearly up to yours. As a result, I do find zdp very noticeably more difficult to work with. This is not a fault with zdp and I'm certainly not trying to say it's a bad steel at all! But, zdp is a "higher cost" steel to me because it costs me a lot more time and physical effort. Higher cost is fine if the return is added benefit, but for some reason I've never gotten notably better edge retention out of zdp. It's just another better-than-decent steel I use, with some different properties from some of the others. It takes a good enough edge (but I have trouble getting a really great edge due to my sharpening limitations ), usually holds it reasonably well (but not better by enough to interest me, and maybe not always), and then requires a very noticeable amount of extra work to sharpen.

S30, on the other hand, seems to be a steel I get along with better than any other. I can put a good edge on it very easily, it cuts well, it doesn't frustrate me or consume excessive amounts of maintenance time, and it seems to hold its edge as well or better than anything else I use. I don't know why zdp falls short for me in my experiences with it, but it does, and my opinion on it is based on that experience.

I realize that's just my experience (just as your experience is just your experience), but for me it's just not a good deal; ZDP asks more of me than it gives back, while S30 does everything I ask of it, gives me a cheery hello in the morning, and tucks me in at night. S30V is my buddy. :) That said, I'm not unwilling to get a zdp blade, but I don't see it as a very significant point in a knife's favor over lesser steels that serve my purposes better overall. I recently got a ZDP Endura because it was super cheap and I liked the green scales; the steel was interesting to me, but in more of a "maybe this time it'll seem more worthwhile" way. ZDP has good steel snob appeal too. I actually like the knife a lot and I'm glad I got it, though I'm all sad faces after a confidence-bruising Sharpmaker session. I'd probably be happier with an Endura that had green scales and a VG10 blade that said ZDP on it.

So that's my experience with it. When someone else says that zdp works great for them and it's a perfect steel for their uses, I believe them, and I'm happy for them. But when someone says that zdp works great for them and is perfect for everyone else too, I don't believe it, because the world doesn't work like that, and my own experiences contradict that conclusion. ZDP is an arguably better steel than S30V, but it is not better on all points for all people, and S30 isn't worthless just because there are better steels and it was overhyped early on. Your zdp is obviously very good for uses, but my zdp is only so so for my uses. I do hope that one day I'll have the sharpening skills and resources to get along with ZDP a little better though. :)

Well in short you are simple not qualified to talk about steel. This is like saying - Ferrary is piece of crap because I do not know how to drive it and three wheeler is my best pal...

In this case why do you even open your mouth? Let people who know what they talking about discuss this. I guess people ask questions hoping to get answer from expert not someone who just need to learn a lot, first?

So what you saying is that CPM S30V is good enough to you because you can not manage anything better. This is why I ask about what is your experience and this clear things up just perfectly.

I guess I in similar situation do not blame steel that it is too good, but rather learn how to handle it - believe me this is not rocket science.

Thanks, Vassili.

[nozh2002]

"CPM S30V was huge step back from CPM S60V"

Good grief, did you really type that rubbish? :rolleyes:

CPM 440V AKA S60V was a totally different steel to S30V. It was a much more difficult steel to sharpen, far more fragile and really not at all suited to even a moderately hard use knife. Only tip I ever broke on a Spyderco was with a S60V blade. It did not take much to do it either.

I am no fan of S30V to be honest, its not as bad a steel as some people say but I prefer VG10 over S30V any day of the week.

ZDP189 is in a different universe compared to S30V. Its a much better steel other than stain resistance and if you keep the edge angle at say 20 degree's per side, I doubt it would micro chip more than S30V. Course, my custom knives in S30V do not exhibit this problem. Its only the production knives that I have in S30V. Heat treat methods. I think S30V is not an easy steel to heat treat on a mass production level.

However, we are comparing Spyderco S30V and ZDP189 so I stand by my statements regarding Spyderco S30V and ZDP189.

In fact ZDP189 can take an angle of 15 degree's per side and hold up better than S30V does. This seems to be born out in testing. I know my UKPK at 15 degree's per side likes to micro chip and my ZDP189 Caly's have had no issues at all and they are incredibly sharp.

Seriously Vassili, you think you are the expert.

You are not, not by a long shot.

I have a great deal of experience and a lot of good relations with knife makers and companies. I don't beat everyone to death with what I have done, what I know, and talk quite rudely to others. I offer my opinion and enjoy a nice polite discussion. I respect others views however wrong they might be.

You are wrong with a lot of what you say. Stop claiming your little tests make fact and disprove the experience of many knife users in the real world.

Well again the fact that you say that one steel is more difficult to sharpen then other kind of simptomatic to me. I can sharpen any steel in same time and see no difference. Ma be you should learn how to do this and stop blaming steel.

CPM S60V may be less tough on some lab tests, but I never hear about any problems with it. Not even tip broken until you mentioned this. And I bet it was not because of cutting, but some extreme situation where other steel will most likely has broken tip as well. Because I heart about broken tips and it happened even with INFI. So to me this is not brittleness. It would be problem it blade fell apart, but no one reports this ever.

So again CPM S30V was huge step back and far from steel which it replaces as well as far from ZDP189. All this was huge disappointment especially when CATRA test results (hidden for years) were disclosed to public. I do not trust any more to knife industry, because perfectly remember what it was 7 years ago, when this steel got pushed to us.

Thanks, Vassili.

[nozh2002]

Vassili, it was stated that S30V has a rougher edge than ZDP-189 due to the microscopic makeup of the steel. Do you agree with this, or not? I trust you have a lot of experience with both steels, so am genuinely interested in your understanding.

Please, excuse my English - I hope ChrisR translate it for you...

In general right sharpening tool does sharpen not only steel matrix but carbides embeded into it as well. Even Vanadium Carbides - diamonds for sure, same Chromium Oxides (Green Rouger) and some other... After sharpening with diamonds all edge will look the same. Carbides will be cut as well - this is why D2 which has huge carbides - 50 micron and more, can also be sharpened to hair whittling sharpness where edge is fraction of micron.

So initially it will be same, but then after some use edge will start evolving. How - nobody know, we may just speculate.

And we can speculate one way:
- Steel matrix wear off and expose carbide tooth making edge looks like saw.

As well as we can speculate other way:
- Carbides fall out of matrix make it looks like sponge and degrade fast.

Both way are possible in theory and until we have real time video from microscope showing how it really works, how it wear out - it is hard to say anything (while it may be great for advertising).

Or it may be totally different we can not even imagine how.

There is a lot of theories, but no solid factual base really. I am personally like best bulat(wootz) theory - when with thermo-cycling when carbides dissolves and then crystallize back allows smith to manage how those things distributes inside blade making some kind of solid bush like 3D structure making blade similar to steel reinforced concrete, so it became extremely flexible and very hard at same time... But again this is just theory.

Thanks, Vassili.

[nozh2002]

[ALL UNNECESSARY AND INFLAMMATORY POLITICAL CONTENT EDITED OUT BY MICHAEL JANICH. GIST: NIKITA KRUSHCHEV BANGED HIS SHOE ON HIS DESK DURING A UN DEBATE IN OCTOBER 1960.]
Thanks, Vassili.

It was not me who brought up "shoe bang" into discussion. This directly targeted my Russian origin, which at least disrespectful if not more.

Why that crap is allowed and supported (see this GIST remark), but my reply is not?

Thanks, Vassili.

It looks like Janich taking too much responsibility in Spyderco - from Warranty Policy to Political Censorship. Who he think he is?

[JNewell]

And your professional training and education is in...?

Well in short you are simple not qualified to talk about steel. This is like saying - Ferrary is piece of crap because I do not know how to drive it and three wheeler is my best pal...

In this case why do you even open your mouth? Let people who know what they talking about discuss this. I guess people ask questions hoping to get answer from expert not someone who just need to learn a lot, first?

So what you saying is that CPM S30V is good enough to you because you can not manage anything better. This is why I ask about what is your experience and this clear things up just perfectly.

I guess I in similar situation do not blame steel that it is too good, but rather learn how to handle it - believe me this is not rocket science.

Thanks, Vassili.

[Michael Janich]

It looks like Janich taking too much responsibility in Spyderco - from Warranty Policy to Political Censorship. Who he think he is?

As Special Projects Coordinator I have many different responsibilities, including monitoring our forums and communicating our policies.

Mike

[TBob]

As Special Projects Coordinator I have many different responsibilities, including monitoring our forums and communicating our policies.

Mike

Mike - That was an incredibly humble response given your vast wealth of expertise and experience. Thanks for all that you do and have done for our country. Your edged weapon self-defense system revolutionized the way I approached a subject that I previously *thought* I knew something about.

[dj moonbat]

It was not me who brought up "shoe bang" into discussion. This directly targeted my Russian origin, which at least disrespectful if not more.

It's true, and I feel bad about it. I will say, in my defense, that if you wrote in a folksy Texan style, I would have quoted America's recent president who told the world, "you're with us, or you're with the terrorists." Your style is abusive, and deserves ridicule.

[SaturnNyne]

Well in short you are simple not qualified to talk about steel.

Priceless. :rolleyes: This thread has become Vassili's greatest hits.

This is like saying - Ferrary is piece of crap because I do not know how to drive it and three wheeler is my best pal...

This is incorrect. Nowhere did I say that ZDP is "crap." I believe what I *did* say was that it's better than S30V, just as you say. I then went on to explain why it doesn't work better for me in practice despite being better, and I admitted that the fault lies with me and not the steel. I don't really know what you want from me here, all you did was say what I said back at me but rephrased to be abusive to me. I'm not trying to BS you and tell you how experienced and knowledgeable and skilled I am, I'm being straight with you and admitting I have limitations that you don't, and that you have capabilities that I don't, and that these differences between us create differences in our preferences. So why be an arse about it.

In this case why do you even open your mouth? Let people who know what they talking about discuss this. I guess people ask questions hoping to get answer from expert not someone who just need to learn a lot, first?

That's a good idea! Vassili, are you turning over a new leaf with this abrubt 180º change in the direction of your standard policy?!

So what you saying is that CPM S30V is good enough to you because you can not manage anything better.

No, what I'm saying is that S30V has surprised me by working the best for the way I use and treat steel, even better than steels that are technically better. To use your previous analogy, the fact that Ferrari's exist doesn't mean no one is allowed to drive a Honda due to it being inferior; it may be inferior, but the service it provides won't be inferior for all people.

This is why I ask about what is your experience and this clear things up just perfectly.

Well good, so you understand that I'm a normal person with average skills who isn't interested in worshipping or trashing a steel based on its performance in one amateur enthusiast's testing.

I guess I in similar situation do not blame steel that it is too good, but rather learn how to handle it - believe me this is not rocket science.

Again, I did not blame the steel, I blamed myself. I'm glad we're in agreement that I'm at fault, but that doesn't change the fact that ZDP doesn't work well for me due to a Real Reason that exists in Reality. So then what part of "I agree that ZDP is technically better" do you not understand? Is your issue really only with me, you don't like that I don't like what you like? This is sad and getting sadder.

Well again the fact that you say that one steel is more difficult to sharpen then other kind of simptomatic to me. I can sharpen any steel in same time and see no difference.

You're a self styled expert on the minute differences between steels, but you see no difference in how they sharpen? Even an inexperienced dummy like me who's unqualified to open my mouth in public on the subject of steel can plainly see differences in the way steels sharpen, so I find this difficult to believe. I suppose it's possible, but it sure suggests your experience is far outside the norm.

CPM S60V may be less tough on some lab tests, but I never hear about any problems with it.

Oh, well then, lab tests. I guess who cares about what some lab tests say if they conflict with user experience, right? Right? Get it? Haha! Get it? Nudge nudge, get it? Ha, get it, Vassili? Am I right?! Heh.... whew, sigh.

It was not me who brought up "shoe bang" into discussion. This directly targeted my Russian origin, which at least disrespectful if not more.

Actually, you have a Russian sounding name, but I don't think you've ever explicitly said that you're Russian. I was under the impression that you live somewhere around Oregon for some reason, and I have no idea what your history is beyond that, aside from the clues in the way you talk. If you are indeed Russian, then Moonbat's Krushchev comparison is all the more on point, but really the comparison works even if you're not because the way you communicate just sounds like Kruschev banging a shoe and trying to be heard. And, truth be told, that combined with your prominent use of your name in every post makes me seriously wonder if the whole thing is a put on. But your tests seem real as far as I can tell, so at this point I still mostly think you're legit.

All the same, yes I agree that what's been said has been disrespectful to you. However...

Your style is abusive, and deserves ridicule.

That's exactly it. Vassili, you're a bully who shows no respect to anyone who doesn't toe your line of thought. Respect is generally something you can only receive by giving; if you want respectful treatment, give it to others.

It looks like Janich taking too much responsibility in Spyderco - from Warranty Policy to Political Censorship. Who he think he is?

He thinks he's Michael Janich!! (He was humble in his response, so someone had to say it. :) )


Ok there we go, I've explained my thoughts to him twice now. Another 8 to 20 times and this'll all be settled, judging by the warranty thread. :p

I could really use a sandwich now....

[TBob]

Returning to the original question, I suggest that the OP and others read pages 72 and 73 of the full-size 2010 Spyderco catalog (pages 78-79 in the smaller-format catalog that comes with the knives). I believe that it's downloadable from Spyderco's site. Spyderco (probably Sal?) provides an outstanding discussion of steel, how it's made, and how the various elements and processes affect the outcome.

In particular, here's a quote from that section's introduction:

Steel as a matter of opinion is very subjective as it relates to knives and knife knuts. There is no clear cut answer as to which is the best steel. We have different requirements and preferences.

May I humbly suggest that we let that core truth guide and salt our discussion.

[kawr]

And your professional training and education is in...?

Vassili's profressional training is in trolling.

It looks like Janich taking too much responsibility in Spyderco - from Warranty Policy to Political Censorship. Who he think he is?

I could ask the same thing of you. Who do you think you are? All you do is spout trash all day on forums, does it make you feel better about yourself?

Your so called knife test that you're so proud about and mention in nearly every post as the crux of your mastery in steels is bad. Stop mentioning it. Your testing was inconsistent and didnt have the necessary controlled environment to be accurate. For example you dont use the same measured force for each cut. That is why you got vastly different results from the same exact knives from two seperate runs. All you did was waste hours hacking at rope like a clown just so you could pretend like you're an expert.

Anyway, keep up the good work amusing me. I do enjoy feeding a good troll.

[nozh2002]

As Special Projects Coordinator I have many different responsibilities, including monitoring our forums and communicating our policies.

Mike

And I expect apologies from you to join this Saturn in his personal attack aginst me based on my national origin. You did not only do nothing to correct his russofobic action, but deny me to stand up against it and actually make your own contribution -

[ALL UNNECESSARY AND INFLAMMATORY POLITICAL CONTENT EDITED OUT BY MICHAEL JANICH. GIST: NIKITA KRUSHCHEV BANGED HIS SHOE ON HIS DESK DURING A UN DEBATE IN OCTOBER 1960.]

I like you to explain how did this possible on official Spyderco forum by "Special Projects Coordinator".

I also like to hear comment on this from Sal Glesser.

Thanks, Vassili.

[catamount]

The Ignore List can be a very useful feature.

http://www.spyderco.com/forums/profile. ... ignorelist

[JNewell]

As far as I can tell, the result has been a less toxic, not more toxic, discussion?

It was not me who brought up "shoe bang" into discussion. This directly targeted my Russian origin, which at least disrespectful if not more.

Why that crap is allowed and supported (see this GIST remark), but my reply is not?

Thanks, Vassili.

It looks like Janich taking too much responsibility in Spyderco - from Warranty Policy to Political Censorship. Who he think he is?

[dbcad]

Life is too short for online squabbles.

I'm thinking about a nice thick reuben, grilled on both sides with homemade russian dressing mingled with the pastrami, sauerkraut, and swiss cheese into one delicious gooey mess. It's best not to do this everyday :) I love a good sandwich :D

Charlie