Has anyone tested just how stainless vg-10 really is? Also how soft is h-1 really?

[The Deacon]

IIRC, one of the problems with Rockwell testing H-1 is that the tests are normally performed fairly high on the blade. With H-1, a reading at taken there would be totally meaningless. Not to mention that, even assuming the test could be run close enough to the edge to be accurate, the results of testing a single sample of a work hardened steel might be more misleading that informative.

[chuck_roxas45]

I was thinking of how hard a new H1 blade might be. If there is a significant difference between spine hardness and edge hardness, then we'll know the edge hardened because of the work to grind it. It would also be very interesting to see how much the difference is between the spine and the "work hardened" edge.

If there's no significant difference between spine hardness and edge hardness, then not might work hardening be a myth?

[The General]

I tested and continue to work with both a plain edge and a serrated edge Salt 1.

Plain edge is ok, takes a good edge but loses it very quickly. Somewhere between Spyderco's 6a and 8a IMHO.

The serrated edge version holds an edge brilliantly. Much much longer and not just because that's serrations for you. No, its light years better over the plain edge.

Seriously, a serrated H1 blade is astonishingly good. Plain edge is so so.

That's what I found.

I think people tend to get rather het up about this work hardening thing. I think its more about how the knife is worked to create the edge than sharpening at home with stones that causes the work hardening.

I don't think sharpening an edge is going to increase the hardness of the edge to any measurable degree. Not the way we do it. The way the factory does it, yes, especially the serrations. Hence the higher hardness.

I think Sal just means the more you use the knife the steel responds to that and it self hardens the next portion of blade due to use and sharpening. I don't think it gets harder than the edge already is from the factory. I can't really see how that could happen without using the factory equipment and I bet that's a lot more 'hard' on the knife than stropping and gently sharpening with stones.

Course, people will just make assumptions and run with idea's.

Like I just did. :D

[catamount]

H1 is a precipitation-hardened alloy. And yes, it is also work-hardened. Meaning that anything that you do that causes heat through friction will harden the steel further; it’s also important to note that tests have shown that it does not become brittle. The work-hardened properties of H1 have been proven by analysis independently performed by Crucible Specialty Metals. It is this that explains why an H1 blade with a SpyderEdge has better edge retention than it's PlainEdge counterpart. In the end, the analysis from Crucible found the Rc at the spine was 58, however at the edge it had increased in both the PlainEdge (to 65 Rc) and the SpyderEdge (to 68 Rc).

The Salt Series knives are being made and promoted to a market where corrosion resistance is important.

So, is H1 possibly just another flavor-of-the-month? Possibly, but hype can only go so far.

Kristi

http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showthre ... post210077

[Antonio_Luiz]

http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showthre ... post210077

Well - that is a link to another thread and not to the actual test report from Crucible - but if those figures can be believed then H1 = insanely hard vs other knife steels.

So if a truly non-corrosive truly stainless steel is capable of this level of hardness whilst still being tough enough to be practicable, why isn't it being used in high end chef knives ??? And don't quote cost as being the reason - have you seen how long people are willing to wait and the prices they are willing to pay for a Kramer?

[The Deacon]

Well - that is a link to another thread and not to the actual test report from Crucible - but if those figures can be believed then H1 = insanely hard vs other knife steels.

So if a truly non-corrosive truly stainless steel is capable of this level of hardness whilst still being tough enough to be practicable, why isn't it being used in high end chef knives ??? And don't quote cost as being the reason - have you seen how long people are willing to wait and the prices they are willing to pay for a Kramer?

Feel free to contact Crucible, ask them what the tests would cost, then send them some knives for testing. Me, I have enough faith in the integrity of Spyderco in general, and Kristi in particular, to find that unnecessary.

As for the other, perhaps its the fact that the sides of an H-1 blade scratch rather easily. I doubt that many would consider that a desirable trait in high end kitchen knives.

[Ski]

I was thinking of how hard a new H1 blade might be. If there is a significant difference between spine hardness and edge hardness, then we'll know the edge hardened because of the work to grind it. It would also be very interesting to see how much the difference is between the spine and the "work hardened" edge.

If there's no significant difference between spine hardness and edge hardness, then not might work hardening be a myth?

There is a difference, as Kristi stated.

It's time to drink the Work Hardening Kool Aid, it's for real.

[SaturnNyne]

As an austenitic steel, H-1 does not go through the traditional heat treating process of other steels. Instead,
it is a “work hardened” steel.

This is something I've wondered for a long time: since H1 is not heat treated, does this mean that we do not have to worry so much about damaging the properties of the blade by heating? My understanding is that getting a normal steel too hot will ruin the heat treat, but it sounds like H1 doesn't have a heat treat to ruin.

Also, while I'm on the topic, just how hot can we safely get a normal steel? I've heard the rule of thumb that we shouldn't get it hotter than we can comfortably touch, but does this mean that we might risk heat treat damage if we use a blade to, say, quickly move a coal in a fire?

I wonder how it got the reputation of being soft when it's harder than most of the blades Spyderco uses. :confused:

It's considered soft because the bulk of the blade isn't all that hard, it scratches extremely easy, it leans toward toughness instead of strength, and the edge holding on a plain edge is relatively poor in comparison to the steels we think of as hard. It's not truly soft at the edge at all, but it behaves in ways that we associate with a steel that is soft and pliable, rather than one that is hard and brittle.

The serrated edge version holds an edge brilliantly. Much much longer and not just because that's serrations for you. No, its light years better over the plain edge.

Seriously, a serrated H1 blade is astonishingly good. Plain edge is so so.

That's about what I've found with the plain edges too; it's maybe the only steel I use that displays noticeable dulling after normal usage, the rest stand up to my light uses for months and don't seem challenged.

Your comments on serrated H1 remind me of what Sal said about half a year ago, that serrated H1 is the best edge-holder they've ever tested. Whether better test results here translate to better performance in actual use is probably a matter of how you're using it though.

Serrated H1 will stay sharper longer than any steel we've tested to date (including ZDP and S90v).

http://www.britishblades.com/forums/sho ... ost1366810

When I've pointed that out in the past, I've been told that Sal was saying that SE H1 would cut longer than any PE steel they've tested. I don't think that's the case though; he said stay sharper longer, not cut longer, and he seemed to be comparing SE H1, as a distinct steel from PE H1, against other steels, not plain edges in other steels. Still, it'd be nice if Sal could absolutely clarify what he meant.

[The General]

Well, from my point of view, I rate a serrated H1 blade as one of the very best cutters in the business. Everyone ought to buy one just to try it.

I think its a combo of the extra hardness from creating the serrations, the toughness inherent in H1 combined with the properties that Spyderco serrations give and oh well you get a great combo. Pretty much perfection.

Higher abrasion resistant steels running high hardness tend not to do so well with serrated edges in real world use. They chip out and break.

Softer steels wear away too quickly.

The serration pattern protects the edge with the valleys and peaks, this combined with the astonishingly hard edge and toughness gives the magic ingredients that a H1 serrated blade gives. Oh and it wont rust.

I bought a fully serrated S30V military to replace my first and well loved fully serrated Endura as my pocket chainsaw and self defence knife from zombies or pirates.

I really ought to buy a fully serrated Pacific Salt and test that. Had I the funds I would buy one right now. The Salt 1 has simply left me grinning with its performance in a little blade. :D

H1 and a serrated edge? Heaven.

[SaturnNyne]

Well, from my point of view, I rate a serrated H1 blade as one of the very best cutters in the business. Everyone ought to buy one just to try it.

...

I really ought to buy a fully serrated Pacific Salt and test that. Had I the funds I would buy one right now.

That's exactly what I thought! So I bought a SE Pacific, only to find that it Does Not Cut. Well, it cleanly slashes through stuff pretty well because the edge is fairly sharp, but it gets bogged down in cardboard and can't slice through paracord to save its life. The way the teeth are cut on mine is just too aggressive, the points catch and halt the cut, rather than assisting the cut. I put it on the grey rods for a few hundred strokes (it barely would move across them due to the teeth catching on the rods) to smooth the points a bit, which improved things surprisingly little. It now sharpens more smoothly and can be made to cut some materials a bit better, but it still generally cuts in only a very rough fashion; the knife that ain't made for cuttin' has become a joke among my friends. So, I unfortunately have not yet gotten to try out SE H1 myself, not properly. But I will.

I used to think I just got a bad one, but this week I saw a review comparing Pacific to Aqua and noting how much more aggressive the Pac teeth were, and the photo looked just like mine. I also remember the story of a sailor who bought one and had to get the teeth professionally ground down because it just wouldn't cut lines. So now I'm worried about it. It got me scared of Seki teeth for a while, but I really really think they can't all be like this simply because... well, it just doesn't work. But clearly at least some of them have some very ineffective teeth on them for whatever reason.

It doesn't upset me because, fortunately, my uses for this knife actually don't require it to do much cutting, so it's more a blow to my pride that I haven't been able to fix it. I just thought I should warn you of the potential problem if you're considering getting one. Be careful and good luck!

[Markous]

To what Rc harness's does Spyderco HT the VG-10 & H-1 too?

[Falco]

Nutnfancy made a video proving VG-10's solid rust resistance. He left his ffg delica in the snow outside his tent all night, during a mountain hike.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob_dUWFDrgg

[Blerv]

I was thinking of how hard a new H1 blade might be. If there is a significant difference between spine hardness and edge hardness, then we'll know the edge hardened because of the work to grind it. It would also be very interesting to see how much the difference is between the spine and the "work hardened" edge.

If there's no significant difference between spine hardness and edge hardness, then not might work hardening be a myth?

I read one ZDP test where they got different RC ratings as they went from the spine to the edge. In fact, I think it's fairly common to see a small variance.

I would love to see a test showing the difference between spine and edge hardness on H1. The problem I could see is that some people would see a low number as a bad number (for the spine), when in fact it's a GOOD thing!

Everything I know about H1, which is not very much given it's proprietary chemistry ( :D ) is that it's results are very similar to differential heat treating even though the process and chemistry is different. Similar to swords, axes and some fixed blades.

http://www.knifeart.com/difbyterprim.html

I certainly believe it's more than a myth. The fact that the Rock Salt holds a mean edge and can hack like spring steel is testament in itself.

[Blerv]

Nutnfancy made a video proving VG-10's solid rust resistance. He left his ffg delica in the snow outside his tent all night, during a mountain hike.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob_dUWFDrgg

I saw that vid. Thanks for the link Falco :) .

Yep some people forget how great VG10 is. It's certainly not carbon steel.

It wins the "well rounded" award in my book with very few (if any) faults.

[Dr. Snubnose]

I love VG-10 always have and always will...I'm a big fan of 154CM, I think if not the same very similar to the VG-10....I like other steel but VG-10 hold a special place....Doc :D

[sal]

When Dick Barber was working at Crucible, we had discussed the properties of H1 quite a bit. Crucible had micro hardness testing equipment that could be used to test hardness at .001 increments. That's how he tested H1 and that's where the results came from.

We have been using H1 for a number of years and we're contantly learning more about it's properrties. As a relatively new material, there is little history to work with.

Some forumites have tested H1 as to it's corrosion resistance quite a bit with positive results.

CATRA testing on abrasion resistance puts the plain edge in the AUS-8 range. The serrated H1, such as the Jumpmaster, in CATRA tests, have shown to be exceptional with better performance than plain or serrated steels of any that we've tested. Field tests have shown this to be true as well.

As far as serration shape, this is always challenging. each time a blade is serrated, the formed wheel changes shape a little bit. The wheel is usually dressed every 50 blades or so depending on the blade material. The tendency of most makers is to make them longer and "toothier" to make the wheel last longer between dressing. This is always a challenge as we prefer to dress more often and keep the shape in what we consider to be "ideal". A moving target to be sure.

If you find your serrations to be too toothy, (any serrations from any company), sharpening on a sharpmaker for a while (several hundred strokes) will usually remedy the situation. We've been making serrated knives since 1982 and we still battle consistent shape.

sal

[The General]

That's exactly what I thought! So I bought a SE Pacific, only to find that it Does Not Cut. Well, it cleanly slashes through stuff pretty well because the edge is fairly sharp, but it gets bogged down in cardboard and can't slice through paracord to save its life. The way the teeth are cut on mine is just too aggressive, the points catch and halt the cut, rather than assisting the cut. I put it on the grey rods for a few hundred strokes (it barely would move across them due to the teeth catching on the rods) to smooth the points a bit, which improved things surprisingly little. It now sharpens more smoothly and can be made to cut some materials a bit better, but it still generally cuts in only a very rough fashion; the knife that ain't made for cuttin' has become a joke among my friends. So, I unfortunately have not yet gotten to try out SE H1 myself, not properly. But I will.

I used to think I just got a bad one, but this week I saw a review comparing Pacific to Aqua and noting how much more aggressive the Pac teeth were, and the photo looked just like mine. I also remember the story of a sailor who bought one and had to get the teeth professionally ground down because it just wouldn't cut lines. So now I'm worried about it. It got me scared of Seki teeth for a while, but I really really think they can't all be like this simply because... well, it just doesn't work. But clearly at least some of them have some very ineffective teeth on them for whatever reason.

It doesn't upset me because, fortunately, my uses for this knife actually don't require it to do much cutting, so it's more a blow to my pride that I haven't been able to fix it. I just thought I should warn you of the potential problem if you're considering getting one. Be careful and good luck!

Hmmmmm thats odd, I don't think I have ever seen a Spyderco with a serrated edge that could not chew through line and rope. Very strange.

I am seriously going to have to see if I can get one now cheaply so I can test this and report my findings. Won't be soon though, being out of work, a man has to eat! :D

[Reeper22]

Hmmmmm thats odd, I don't think I have ever seen a Spyderco with a serrated edge that could not chew through line and rope. Very strange.

I am seriously going to have to see if I can get one now cheaply so I can test this and report my findings. Won't be soon though, being out of work, a man has to eat! :D

I have heard of differences in serrations between Seki and Golden Spydies but I don't know. Doesn't seem too crazy.

[dsmegst]

Sal,

Would a chisel grind H-1 blade have the same sort of hardness as a serrated H-1 blade? If so, a H-1 kitchen knife with a chisel grind may be a great kitchen tool for chopping stuff. I'm still waiting for a new line of Spyderco kitchen knives.

[Blerv]

CATRA testing on abrasion resistance puts the plain edge in the AUS-8 range. The serrated H1, such as the Jumpmaster, in CATRA tests, have shown to be exceptional with better performance than plain or serrated steels of any that we've tested. Field tests have shown this to be true as well.

Thank you Sal. That clears up quite a bit in my mind.