Is "hard use" the new "tactical"?

[dbcad]

Mr Schemp's new folder should be interesting. Looking forward to seeing and hearing about it.

About the other issues being discussed; Each individual has their own preference as to what they prefer. No individual's preference is "better" or "worse" than any other. I enjoy the Manix2 as well as the Delica FFG.

I do agree that "hard use" and "tactical" are now really marketing terms used for labeling a specific product. From the Temp2 to the Ladybug I enjoy them all, despite the labels put on them....All good knives :D

Charlie

[sal]

Sounds nice Sal and Ed. Might be too heavy use for a folder for me though I have some fixed :spyder: s and Norwegian laws are pretty tolerant when it comes to what we can carry while outdoors :D

See you changed lock since Leeds

Hey Sverre,

You are very astute with a good memory as well. We're still working on the self close for the integral compression lock. I think the Reeve lock will work well.

sal

[SUDS]

Wow, all this talk about the tuff is great! Sounds like a sweet knife that will be to my liking! can't wait for some photos

[Ankerson]

CPM 3V is really a great steel, very tough and stain resistant and should be great in a folder. :D

It holds an edge very well also so it's great choice IMO. :spyder:

Maybe a Convex primary grind of some type?

[JNewell]

No no no no no no no. And no. I want it all. I want a slicer that I can make fine slices of things like apples and I want to be able to pry with it. I want a piercing point that I can use to open oil drums. I want it to be light and compact and I want it tank-tough and I want a really secure grip. This is what I want. I deserve it. Get it for me. Just one knife. Oh, and I want premium steel but I want a sub-$100 price. Now now now now now.

Start with the purpose, then seek the tool.

Usually with any extreme tool comes limitations in various other categories. Look at the Lotus Elise or the Mercedes Unimog as a couple examples. Still, purpose built with nearly a limitless budget and they are both horrible commuter cars.

Like steels you can usually peg a few performance categories. Getting one is easy, two is difficult, if you *can* attain all categories the flaw is price. It's going to be through the roof.

Knives like the Manix2 for example meet quite a few categories for many people. It's as tough as I could ever need (and probably 99% of the population). Still, it's not unbreakable but for a $65 production folder that doesn't weigh 9 ounces it's a tough competitor. I would still trade it for a Mora or any fixed blade for rugged use but those don't fold-up in blue jeans.

There are people who can kill me with a butter knife and others that can build a fort with a SAK better than I could with a nail gun. The ultimate flaw of mankind is typically a lack of training or knowledge.

Still, we often strive to replace this with performance tools alone because it's FAR easier to pull out a credit card than learn a trade or skill. Look at 9/10 white collar folks driving Dodge Viper's at your local Track Days. Then count how many crash them into walls or blow up their engines.

Last time I was out at the track 2/2 Vipers went home on flatbeds. Yay for nitrous and snap-throttle over-steer. The arrogance made it poetic irony.

The term "hard use" is subjective to the person and task. Since more than one company makes knives (and those make multiple models) we should seek personalized "efficiency" within our requirements.

[Evil D]

I see the same type sentiments expressed whenever anyone asks for **** near anything. Small knife people can't understand why folks want large ones. Large knife people can't figure why someone would opt for a small one. Those content with slipjoints can't see the need for locks. "Knife is a tool" people can't understand the concept of "highly functional jewelry". The list is as long as the list of knife features and combinations thereof.

Question is more, should an existing model, which serves the needs and wants of 95% or more of those who have purchased it be re-tasked into something perhaps less suited to their needs in order to satisfy the few. Or, should that 5% be asking for something totally new and designed for them. And, if they don't account for a sufficient market to allow that, pointed in the direction of an existing something that suits their needs better.

As always, Paul nailed it IMO. I think in a way the whole spine whack debate was asked for since the knife in question was described as having a "hard use rated lock", but i totally agree that the majority of the buyers who use that knife will use them to their fullest and be satisfied, while the other tiny majority are asking more out of that knife than it was designed to do and for what they expect it to do, a fixed blade is smarter to use EVEN IF another folder didn't fail in the same way. I think the solution is to create a niche knife for the "hard use" guys. Build that SOB like a tank with a 5mm thick blade and build it so you'll mushroom the spine of the blade before the lock fails, and build it just to shut everyone up LOL.

The funny part is, sure as i'm breathing, when this tank knife is built, someone will say "i wish the blade was thinner, it's not much of a slicer" :D

[sal]

wrong thread

sal

[chuck_roxas45]

wrong thread

sal

You're right again as usual Sal. This whole thread is just plain wrong. :D

[stonyman]

I believe Mr. Schemp summed it up better than I. I will add a few things. Big and thick for most is normal and fitting for others. The Millies handle or the P3 model is gobbled up by my palm.

Also hard use and abuse has a market. At my agency, some of the knives that pass before me is downright puzzling! I have seen things from broken tips to broken locks..........still in use reguardless of an educated opinion. Anything in the possession of deputies are hard used and broken!

Many of these folks are not very knife informed. The knife is a utility tool that helps them achieve an objective. If a fire alarm panel is in locked room and the only way to get in without keys, guess what gets used? The knife............Right!

Is it right, Yes, because that tool potentially saved hundreds of lives. No, because there are better made tools that are at best in the trunk or with the good fellas who comes with the Big Reds! I fall heavily in the category of knives as useful tools in SD, but appreciate the other aspects of blade use, primarily as a utility tool!

I have been vocal in the past for Spyderco venturing into this type of design. A proportionally beefed up folder to stand up to abnormal use. Use other than what 'us' normal knifers appreciate. Sorry for not posting in awhile between work/training........Just been lurking more than posting when I get a few moments.

Take care all and God Bless!

[JNewell]

You're right again as usual Sal. This whole thread is just plain wrong. :D

I really laughed out loud when I read these two posts... :D

[stonyman]

I believe Mr. Schemp summed it up better than I. I will add a few things. Big and thick for most is normal and fitting for others. The Millies handle or the P3 model is gobbled up by my palm.

Also hard use and abuse has a market. At my agency, some of the knives that pass before me is downright puzzling! I have seen things from broken tips to broken locks..........still in use reguardless of an educated opinion. Anything in the possession of deputies are hard used and broken!

Many of these folks are not very knife informed. The knife is a utility tool that helps them achieve an objective. If a fire alarm panel is in locked room and the only way to get in without keys, guess what gets used? The knife............Right!

Is it right, Yes, because that tool potentially saved hundreds of lives. No, because there are better made tools that are at best in the trunk or with the good fellas who comes with the Big Reds! I fall heavily in the category of knives as useful tools in SD, but appreciate the other aspects of blade use, primarily as a utility tool!

I have been vocal in the past for Spyderco venturing into this type of design. A proportionally beefed up folder to stand up to abnormal use. Use other than what 'us' normal knifers appreciate. Sorry for not posting in awhile between work/training........Just been lurking more than posting when I get a few moments.

Take care all and God Bless!

[stonyman]

I believe Mr. Schemp summed it up better than I. I will add a few things. Big and thick for most is normal and fitting for others. The Millies handle or the P3 model is gobbled up by my palm.

Also hard use and abuse has a market. At my agency, some of the knives that pass before me is downright puzzling! I have seen things from broken tips to broken locks..........still in use reguardless of an educated opinion. Anything in the possession of deputies are hard used and broken!

Many of these folks are not very knife informed. The knife is a utility tool that helps them achieve an objective. If a fire alarm panel is in locked room and the only way to get in without keys, guess what gets used? The knife............Right!

Is it right, Yes, because that tool potentially saved hundreds of lives. No, because there are better made tools that are at best in the trunk or with the good fellas who comes with the Big Reds! I fall heavily in the category of knives as useful tools in SD, but appreciate the other aspects of blade use, primarily as a utility tool!

I have been vocal in the past for Spyderco venturing into this type of design. A proportionally beefed up folder to stand up to abnormal use. Use other than what 'us' normal knifers appreciate. Sorry for not posting in awhile between work/training........Just been lurking more than posting when I get a few moments.

Take care all and God Bless!

[Blerv]

No no no no no no no. And no. I want it all. I want a slicer that I can make fine slices of things like apples and I want to be able to pry with it. I want a piercing point that I can use to open oil drums. I want it to be light and compact and I want it tank-tough and I want a really secure grip. This is what I want. I deserve it. Get it for me. Just one knife. Oh, and I want premium steel but I want a sub-$100 price. Now now now now now.

Haha! Don't forget jimping and drilled liners! /tantrum

[Evil D]

I have been vocal in the past for Spyderco venturing into this type of design. A proportionally beefed up folder to stand up to abnormal use. Use other than what 'us' normal knifers appreciate.

Though i believe there is a point when, if you're going to use something to a certain extreme, a folder is never the right tool for the job.....i would still be interested in a knife like this because, as you point out, you don't always have the option of having the "right" tool at the given time and the folder in your pocket might be your only option. For that reason, i'd probably buy this type of knife. I may not EDC it, but i can definitely think of times when i would carry it, when carrying a large fixed blade is out of the question.

[sal]

I think that Ed's design will work in that arena. Prying, digging, twisting and hammering is what I believe we're talking about. It will also cut effectively.

sal

[chuck_roxas45]

I think that Ed's design will work in that arena. Prying, digging, twisting and hammering is what I believe we're talking about. It will also cut effectively.

sal

Now we're talking. :D

Thanks Sal.

[attej]

Just my 2 cents...

Its kinda funny that ppl are willing to pay a lot of cash for "tank" knives, then test them out "cold steel" -style (check CS tests on youtube if you dont know what Im talking about), and end up using the knife for opening letters at the office. Nothing wrong with that, but lets keep it real. Most folk do not need a "tactical tank" folder. Some do, but some of these knives are sold kinda as a fantasy. Like a movie sword or something. Not pointing fingers here, Im one of you guys... :D

On the other hand I bet most ppl here appreciate a solid high quality knife (duh, we're at :spyder: forum) even though we might get by just fine with inferior knives. Keeping this in mind, if you want a tank, youre willing to pay the price, and youre ok with the additional weight and the thicker blade, buy one.

That said, Ive noticed that Im kinda moving to the opposite direction nowadays. For example, Im really liking the obviously non-"tactical-tank" FFG D4. If Id break said knife while using it for something I usually need a knife for, Id buy a more solid knife.

[Buffalohump]

Woohoo! :eek: :D

Hi Ed, Wayne,

I'm pleased to say that we nmow have a maker for the "Tuff". The steel is on it's way (CPM-3V), the design is complete, and we're finally in motion.

sal

[Evil D]

attej,

Most of us walking around with semi auto handguns in our possession don't need them either, but by God if i ever do i'm sure as **** gonna be ready :cool:

God help the junk mail letter that decides to test me and my tank knife :mad:



:p

[clovisc]

this "hard use" craze/problem is the result of this new outbreak of DIY "test" videos, in which obvious meatheads see how long it takes to smash up their knives, through unscientific, unrealistic experiments. these videos are more about primitive spectacle and bringing attention to oneself than they are about determining whether or not a specific knife is a good cutting tool.

i really hope that spyderco and the rest of the knife industry doesn't lower itself to the point of trying to cater to this sort of foolishness, or trying to "out-Youtube" another company's products. after all, don't we already know through years of video evidence (styrofoam lions stabbed to death, car hoods penetrated by warhammers, hanging pigmeat chopped with samurai swords, etc.) that a certain other brand makes the toughest tools in the universe? :rolleyes:

i live in alaska, use knives pretty often, and pretty hard... in maritime environments, and in upland environments. i know from personal experience and use of knives in the real world that spyderco makes fantastic cutting tools.

keep your "hard use" knives. i prefer "real use" knives.