Curious about serrations

[Grizzled Gizzard]

I live kinda out in the boonies where knife selection has never been adequate. I didn't even know how to turn a computer on three years ago, so my knife world was pretty small. The reason I shied away from Spyderco is because I honestly didn't know that they came unserrated. Grinding off serrations is absolutely out of the question. Believe me.

So anyway, I've gotten a few PE Spydies now, and I do like them a lot. I like the company and the people who run it even more than that, so I'm gonna hang out and buy some more.

This seems to be the right forum to ask about serrations for a few reasons. First, it seems to me that Spyderco probably sells more serrated knives than anyone else. Second, Spyderco's serrations are among the best, but more importantly, Spyderco has by far the best answers to sharpening their serrations. Reading back a ways, it seems like a lot of Spyderdudes like SE more than PE, and I'm wondering why, that's all.

I have basically zero experience with serrations, except the one knife that I ruined. I have about 40 years experience with PE knives, and my Granddads, both close to me, taught me how to sharpen a knife when I was so young that I honestly don't remember Not carrying a sharp knife...ever.

What very little experience I've had cutting stuff with other peoples' SE knives, or SE kitchen knives makes me think I'm missing something. I've never seen them as beneficial, I see them as a detriment to cutting something smoothly, but I could certainly be wrong about that!

PLEASE don't think I'm trying to be judgemental or trying to start a flame war. I promise I'm not. Mainly what I'm wondering is if you guys have done any formal or informal comparisons, and what kind of stuff is better cut with serrations. Of course, I've heard of rope and seat belts, but have you actually done any comparisons?

What about sharpening the serrations? I understand that you can get a ceramic that fits the serrations, which I can only say is Brilliant!, but how does it actually perform? Do the points get nice and sharp and pointy?

Any information on this subject is greatly appreciated, Thank You.

[The Deacon]

Serrations have several potential benefits. For any given blade, they increase the length of the cutting edge. So, at least in theory, the work is spread over a larger area. For the same reason, they place a larger section of edge in contact with the material being cut. They allow a knife to hold its edge considerably longer in certain situations, most specifically when cutting relatively soft material on a hard surface - think serrated steak knives.

Downside is, they are more difficult and time consuming to sharpen, at least for me.

[yablanowitz]

First of all, I'm primarily a plain-edge guy myself. I too have been carrying sharp PE knives for forty years or more, and at first I didn't see any benefit to serrations. I thought they were basically for people who didn't know how to sharpen a knife. I still don't use them a great deal, but I have found some things they do exceptionally well, much better than a PE.

The first thing to realize is that serrated blades require a different technique than plain edge blades. It is more of a sawing motion. This causes the edge to vary its' angle of attack on the material being cut. If you've ever cut through a pipe with a hacksaw, you know that raising or lowering the handle of the saw while you are cutting makes things easier, especially when you are through the wall. Instead of cutting both walls of the pipe at the same time, you rock the saw so you are only cutting one wall at a time. Serrations do much the same thing.

The second thing to realize is serrated blades require less force (less pressure on the blade) since it is concentrated on a smaller area. Too much pressure can cause the teeth to dig in and snag. This has been my biggest challenge in learning how to use them, as I tend to be a bit ham-handed.

The third thing to bear in mind is serrated edges are chisel-ground. The included angle of the edge is generally smaller than a V-grind plain edge. Spyderco tries for 30 degrees included on PE, but SE is generally 25 degrees or less. The grind side is 20 degrees from vertical, but the back side is whatever the main grind of the blade is, from 2 degrees on a thin full flat grind to five or more on a thicker saber grind.

The fourth thing to remember is most serrations actually work better left-handed than right-handed. Try it sometime, especially on something like thin-slicing a tomato, and you might be surprised.

I personally find the SE edge will out-perform PE on fiberous materials such as rope and vines, and on hard surfaces such as plastics and laminates. Poly rope, especially when lubricated with water or oil, can be a real challenge for a plain edge, since it consists of hard-surfaced fibers, but the SE blade will cut right through it thanks to the changing angle of attack.

As far as sharpening goes, with a Byrd Duckfoot and a SharpMaker, I've restored some pretty worn serrations. With good technique, the points will be restored to pointyness.

[TrojanDonkey]

I only have two SE now.I gave one SE away and I lost a Police SE.I probably have more than 10 PE knives.I prefer a SE for a work knife now on MY job.They work great for cutting teflon and other plastic tubing.I always can retrim the ends with the cutters we normally use.A PE gets slightly dull and it just slides off the tubing.I noticed my SE cut cardboard longer better between sharpenings.I sharpen a third as often but it takes me twice as long with my Lansky Spyderco sharpener($10.00).Its small but affordable and works well enough.I also use a leather shoe string to strop my SE knives.I put a little simi chrome or flitz polish on it.I can't get them factory sharp again but they are more than sharp enough for my uses.SEs cut cable ties quickly also and plastic packages and sheathing.They hang up in some denim I tried with my SE Police model I lost.Maybe a factory sharp blade would cut denim better?A Bowie knife or a dagger should be a PE in my opinion but I have really gained an appreciation for SE in certain situations.Buy one and see for yourself.I would like to see blades with ONLY small or large serrations and see people test those.I think small or large ONLY would accell in certain niche situations.

[TrojanDonkey]

Also I dont need to saw cardboard boxes with my SE knives even if they are dull.Maybe a THICK box.But If I want to cut a small hole I do tend to saw a hole-actually a rectangle-to make a semi handle to drag boxes with at work.Sawing is handy in tight spots-an advantage.Normally I dont have to saw with my SE unless I stop midway in a cut.Then I saw a inch or so and it usually push cuts again if I keep the blade moving.

[Blerv]

Serrated knives when sharp can make very clean cuts (compared to saws) but PE still wins in that category. What SE wins in is edge retention and being able to cut w/o the material "slipping". The more it slips the longer it takes to cut, especially when the material is free-standing or you can't get a good grip with the other hand to put tension on it.

PE: Easier to sharpen, cleaner cuts, can do any task well, more sheeple friendly. High-end steels can bridge the gap somewhat in edge retention.

SE: Cuts quicker/deeper on draw cuts. Materials don't "slip" as much. Greater edge retention. The best configuration for H1 which gives amazing edge retention w/o maintenance issues.


Some of the better quotes on the PE/SE debate that I have heard are:

"SE performs better than PE for 7/10 of my tasks but those 3/10 tasks are VERY frustrating."

and

"SE is the king when the only goal is to make 1 object into 2 pieces."


Of course, your mileage will vary. I would say pick up a blade that shines in SE like a hawkbill or rescue/sheepsfoot. That way you have a cutter (eg: Delica/Native) and a ripper (eg: Tasman)

[FIMS]

Over the last year I have found my tastes in varying knife applications change.

For one I now prefer tip-down carry.

And two, I now prefer and pursue plain edge for EDC purposes. I have many serrated and combo edge Spydies. I carry a serrated Endura and Combo Edge Endura on duty at work in each pocket because they are task specific.

But I tell ya, buying all the models of each colour, in the many blade variations gets expensive.

My advice is to go for plain edge to anyone that asks, outside of on duty carry.

No matter what I carry, I always go back to my Stretch 2 or Plain Edge Endura 4. You just cannot beat them.

The plain edge Millie is a next purchase, and I cannot wait. All that long bladed cutting surface. Sexy!

And as Deacon sort of said before, "If I wanted a saw, I would go buy one."

[ChrisR]

PE or SE is also partly a cultural thing ... I get the impression that a lot more serrated knives are sold (as a %) in America than in Europe. Of course there are always going to be good uses for serrations (cutting rope or other tough, thin objects) but most people over here prefer PE blades, as a rule - same goes for Japan I think. Certainly, over here the resale value of SE knives is usually less than the PE equivalent ... unless you're talking about a Salt or Civilian etc.

[marcus1]

Great responses here; but I'll still add my 2c :)

Simply put, serrations cut longer (meaning between sharpening). A dull SE knife will far out perform a dull PE every time (IMHO).

That said, SE is unfortunately harder to get back to "scary sharp" (when talking about a single serration edge). The ProFile stones from Spyderco work well and make the job easier. The corners of the SharpMaker 204 work well too.
But compared to a PE edge (when you get good with your SharpMaker), SE takes much longer.

If you are making a lot of tough cuts all day, an SE knife will generally (in my experience) "last" longer (cut better longer).

I think this gets said a lot on the forum... depends on what you use your knife for on a daily basis. I highly suggest you get an SE blade with good steel (VG-10) and try it out for a time and see for yourself. The Endura4 (or Delica4 if you want "small") is well priced for this test.

[ChapmanPreferred]

Some really good info in this thread.

[RevDevil]

Here is a story for you:
Two months ago, I was asked to rewire (Replace RG59 with RG6) a couple rooms in an office area at work. I did not have a sheet rock saw or a hole saw to go through the wall to do an inital inspection of the walls interior layers. I pulled out a slot screwdriver and I slammed it through the wall. I pulled out my Para Military (fully serrated) and I was able to cleanly cut out a piece of sheet rock.

I did this a couple times that day and ended up getting a sheet rock saw the next day. The moral of the story is that my knife allowed me to quickly start the job without having to reach for much else. A quick swipe with some WD40 on a shop towel and the knife was relatively clean. The serrated edges do really have a significant place, had I used a PE knife, I doubt I would have been able to do what needed to be done that day.

[chipped]

I love them. They're an excuse to carry another knife, what's not to love about that?

No, seriously, I like them a lot, especially on stretchy plastics and similar materials. With a PE you have to pull them taut, with a SE you just chomp into them. On really tough materials, you can saw through them where a PE can't always effectively.

I honestly do carry both. Either in a multitool or by carrying an orange Military and a yellow SE Pacific Salt.

I believe there's a member on here who's tagline is something to the effect of "Shaving is one of the very few things that's better without serrations."

[RIOT]

never carried a plain edged Spyderco, from day one i have always carried serrated edge, sometimes combo edge is cool too but never plain edge.

i am not a sharpening type of guy and the serrated edged Spydercos always keep a sharp cutting edge in between the serrations.

[Ookami]

I have found that serrations work best if you do not saw with them.

Rather, pull your knife through the stuff you want to cut and the serrations will act like a number of small hawkbill knives, keeping the stuff you want to cut in contact with the edge. If one serration slips off, the next will take over.

That's why SE knives can cut fibrous stuff that good. Like Blerv said, less slippage. Serrations produce more drag, but you will be able to make the cut in one go, which can be important for emergency situations.

What's more, serrations can cut stuff that you could hardly cut with a plain edged knife. Eg. the famous example where a SE knife was used to cut wire rope. You can cut wire rope with a plain edge, but you will need a surface to rest the rope on and a hammer to drive the knife through. Other materials that SE knives can cut are like RevDevil said drywall or particle board. On those materials, that you do not ordinarily cut with a knife, you will have to use a sawing motion, though.


Ookami
________
Sativa strains

[FIMS]

I like to weild my knives like swords, so PE is more practical in that respect.

[yablanowitz]

I have found that serrations work best if you do not saw with them.

Rather, pull your knife through the stuff you want to cut and the serrations will act like a number of small hawkbill knives, keeping the stuff you want to cut in contact with the edge. If one serration slips off, the next will take over.

Ookami

Uh...how do you use a saw? I use one by placing the blade in contact with the material to be cut and then pulling or pushing (depending on the blade's teeth and the area in contact). If you are talking about push-cutting as opposed to slicing, i.e. pushing the edge straight down like a guillotine instead of drawing the edge across the material, I suppose you could be right. I personally seldom use a serrated blade on material soft enough to push-cut, so I wouldn't know. If you are talking about pulling the knife toward you, they taught me not to do that in Cub Scouts.

[Ookami]

I have used my "MS Paint-Fu" to illustrate what I mean.

Rather a) than b).


Ookami
________
Vios

[Grizzled Gizzard]

WOW!! I can't thank you gentlemen enough for taking the time to give such detailed information! I am very impressed with each and every reply, and this forum.

It is safe to say that you have converted me from thinking serrations are almost an abhorrence, to "now I gotta get one". You have given me great reasons and ample applications for me to pick up a serrated Spydie and give it a shot. I've rarely carried more than one knife at a time, but that's exactly what I'm going to do.

Thanks a bunch guys, you answered this question completely!

[yablanowitz]

I have used my "MS Paint-Fu" to illustrate what I mean.

Rather a) than b).


Ookami

Your paint-fu is strong, Ookami-wan. I understand now. :D

[cckw]

Even though you are convinced I'll add my bit. I think an SE is the perfect farmer rancher knife. when you need to get something cut for sure right now, it is the knife. I gifted one each to 2 different farmers that lets me hunt deer. I have talked to one since then, and he was super happy with it. the other I haven't talked to since the day I gave it to him. But he was very pleased that day.