Michael Janich's article in Tactical Knives magazine?

[defenestrate]

There are some excellent comments here, most of which I can see and agree with to some extent. I found KaliGMan's probably most fitting.

I'd just like to make one personal note: in the "self defense" test, they are testing snap cuts on a fixed target on a slab. I do not anticipate having to defend myself against an enemy who is lying passively on a slab. Far more likely they will be standing and moving. As such. I am nearly 100% certain that I would try to make a slashing cut that followed through rather than pulling back from the target, making as wide and deep a slash as is plausible, unless I was damned certain that I had effectively destroyed the spinal column or the carotid artery or similar. Even then, I would probably want the arc of my strike to carry through just to ensure that my target spot was as thoroughly cut as possible. Also, I would almost certainly, given that we are speaking about pretty much a life-or-death conflict here, immediately follow that strike with one from my other hand, continuing the arc with the first striking arm in hopes of severing tendons and muscles in the way of said arc while bringing down a second strike more actively with the other hand, be it with a blade, some manner of bludgeon or just a fist or knifehand. The "snap cut" does not compute for me - maybe the second hand if I had a stick or baton or similar would want to snap back so as to free the area for the first hand, or in preparation for a followup strike. I hope this is making sense - I am trying to visualize this as I type it so if something is unclear please ask and I will try to better explain :D

[buglerbilly]

I agree with KaliGMan's and defenestrate comments in particular and would also add that my view, from outside of the USA, is that certain manufacturers and Custom Makers in particular do NOT like contrary comments to their products. In itself this is fine, everyone has rights to be proud of their products but to do so by belittling, insulting or deriding the people that have made such comments is the act of a bully and a buffoon.

Lynn Thompson is not the only person to do this and as distasteful as this is in this instance, I'm not sure if this kind of over-the-top reaction is done as a matter of policy, I would hope not!

There are other Custom makers in particular who have a rabid MOB praising their over-priced products like it's the second coming, and who will rant like a bunch of purile Terrible Two's if ANYTHING is said negatively to their blind praise of their Leader's latest offering.............fanboi's is just one term for them.

I love Spyderco's knives.

I do NOT love everything they have made nor everything they are going to offer in the future. I personally think it would be impossible to say this about anything - knife maker, car maker, phone maker, watch maker, etc etc.

I'd much rather read about two groups discussing intelligently and coherently the benefits of their various products and views on how such products should be made or used.

The fact is that the coherent and intelligent party that acts with courtesy and regards for varying views will ALWAYS succeed long-term.

Its ONE of the reasons I stick with Spyderco and one of the reasons I like visiting this forum.

Regards,

BRIAN

[MCM]

Agree.
The most basic Military 100 yr+ old training tells you to go sideways into the ribcage.
Not sure I have ever even seen anyone mention this..............

Food for thought...........

[defenestrate]

Agree.
The most basic Military 100 yr+ old training tells you to go sideways into the ribcage.
Not sure I have ever even seen anyone mention this..............

Food for thought...........

Either just a bit below the armpit *or* icepick style behind the opponent's left clavicle as these require less penetrative force and/or distance to hit either the heart or the Aorta.

[HistoricalMan]

Either just a bit below the armpit *or* icepick style behind the opponent's left clavicle as these require less penetrative force and/or distance to hit either the heart or the Aorta.

I shudder at the thought of being attacked in such a fashion!

[Ookami]

The "snap cut" does not compute for me

The idea is to give the BG something to think about and not expose yourself.

Eg, after you have successfully dodged a power strike you get a free shot at his hand/arm/shoulder/face while he follows through. A snap cut can be sufficient to sever a tendon or major blood vessel.

What I would have liked to see in the video is a comparison of a full power cut. The geometry of the traditional tanto should outcut the CS tanto.


Ookami

[Monocrom]

One of the best compliments anyone can get is to have L.T. get p*ssed at something you wrote or said.

[Michael Janich]

First of all, thanks to everyone for contributing to this discussion and for your your words of support of me and Spyderco. I also appreciate the reminders of the need for "shiny footprints," so please keep that in mind as this thread progresses.

I'd like to offer a few thoughts to put this all in perspective:

1) I decided to write on the topic of the Americanized Tanto based on my experiences talking to end users at trade shows--especially military personnel and LEOs who deserve the best guidance we can give. Over the years I have had many of them come up specifically looking for tantos because "they are better than every other blade shape." Based on that statement, it's clear that the marketing efforts behind the Americanized Tanto ("AT," for short) have been incredibly effective. However, that doesn't mean that it's the best tool for all jobs.

2) As I mentioned in the column, the greatest advantages of the AT are its exceptional tip strength and its ability to achieve the full cross-sectional dimension of the blade as quickly as possible. That makes it ideal for its original combative purpose, or that of the closest traditional Japanese equivalent, the yoroi-toshi. Basically this was a tanto with a very stout point meant for grappling in armor. If two Samurai ended up at grappling range, this weapon was used to find the joints in the armor and basically pry or puncture an opening to attack the body part underneath. The AT's point also excels at puncturing any other thin, resilient material. Once the strong point penetrates an inch or so, the blade reaches its full cross-sectional dimension (or close to it) and the rest of the blade length slides easily through the hole. This is in contrast to a blade with a sharper point and a gradual taper, which experiences increasing drag over most of its length as it gradually opens the hole. That's why ATs perform so well in the dramatic demonstrations of piercing car hoods, oil drums, heavy leather, and similar types of thin, resilient materials.

3) The down side of the tanto point is that, during that first inch or so of penetration, it actually experiences greater drag than a more acute point. If you have a thicker material--or a solid, homogenous material--it will experience greater drag over its entire length of penetration.

4) While working on the book "Contemporary Knife Targeting" with my late friend Chris Grosz, Chris showed me a medical study he had found in his research. In this study, a group of forensic scientists wanted to quantify the amount of force necessary to penetrate human skin with a knife. They did this by building a device that held a knife and would measure the force applied as the knife point was pushed through a material. They then used this device to penetrate the abdominal cavities of human cadavers. They repeated the test many times with different types of knives. Their conclusion was that the resistance required to penetrate skin was inversely proportional to the acuteness of the knife's point. Sharp, acute points required minimal force.

5) Based on the study cited above, I began to do my own testing using a ballistic pendulum--a long, swinging arm that holds a knife at the end. I chose this device because it replicates, at least to a degree, the natural arcing motion of the human arm and because by raising it to a specific angle before releasing it, I can precisely regulate the amount of force of the thrust. I also prefer this testing method because it allows me to use a free-standing target, which simulates an upright opponent (the most common kind) that is capable of recoiling against the force of a strike. I typically mount the target to a Black-and-Decker Workmate, which I've found provides enough weight to accurately replicate the inertia of a still person, while still allowing natural "recoil" upon impact. I feel this is much more realistic than a rigidly braced target. Over time, I also experimented to determine an appropriate release height for the pendulum to replicate the average force of a hand-powered thrust. While not sophisticated science, I feel this method is reasonable and consistently repeatable. Most importantly, by not applying too much force in the thrust and by having a homogenous, somewhat resilient target, knives do not "bottom out" and achieve full penetration every time. As such, there is actually a basis for measurable performance comparison.

6) I have great respect for Cold Steel's products and the company's commitment to quality. Over the years, I have owned and carried many of their knives and recommended them highly to my students. I have also written a number of reviews of their products, including an article in Tactical Knives on their San Mai tantos. In that article, I tested the knives in the context of what I believed to be their appropriate application and praised them highly for their performance.

7) The real message of the column I wrote was to encourage the reader to base his choice of knife on actual use or performance testing that is relevant to the applications he has in mind for it. Don't be taken in by hype or marketing. Instead, base your choice on a knife's actual ability to do the things you want it to do. If the testing shown in the Cold Steel video and the performance capabilities of their tantos is more relevant to your needs, those are the best knives for you.

8) My comment chracterizing an Americanized Tanto as a "sharpened pry bar" was not intended to be disparaging; it was in fact an example of choosing a knife that is appropriate to your intended use. I have worked with many SWAT officers over the years. When it comes to knives, they tend to do a lot more prying than cutting. For their needs, a Cold Steel tanto IS an excellent choice, offering extreme prying strength and outstanding cutting performance. However, just because it's a great SWAT knife does not automatically make it the ultimate personal defense knife.

9) The most important point I'd like to make is that when I write for Tactical Knives or any other publication, I am expressing my PERSONAL opinions. I am not writing on behalf of Spyderco. That's the way it was when I first started writing about knives in 1994, that's the way it was during the five years I managed Masters of Defense/BlackHawk Blades, and that's the way it is now. I do my best to share information that is accurate and relevant to the needs and interests of the readers.

I hope this helps clarify my thoughts on this subject and my intent behind the column. I encourage everyone to actually read the original column in the current issue of TK. Please also note that, out of respect for Harris Publications and their copyright, it should not be posted on the Internet without their permission.

Stay safe,

Mike

"You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. "
Winston Churchill

[Michael Janich]

For those of you who haven't seen the actual colmn, Tactical Knives has it up on line:

http://www.tactical-life.com/online/tac ... wo-tantos/

Stay safe,

Mike

[Ski]

5) Based on the study cited above, I began to do my own testing using a ballistic pendulum--a long, swinging arm that holds a knife at the end. I chose this device because it replicates, at least to a degree, the natural arcing motion of the human arm and because by raising it to a specific angle before releasing it, I can precisely regulate the amount of force of the thrust. I also prefer this testing method because it allows me to use a free-standing target, which simulates an upright opponent (the most common kind) that is capable of recoiling against the force of a strike. I typically mount the target to a Black-and-Decker Workmate, which I've found provides enough weight to accurately replicate the inertia of a still person, while still allowing natural "recoil" upon impact. I feel this is much more realistic than a rigidly braced target. Over time, I also experimented to determine an appropriate release height for the pendulum to replicate the average force of a hand-powered thrust. While not sophisticated science, I feel this method is reasonable and consistently repeatable. Most importantly, by not applying too much force in the thrust and by having a homogenous, somewhat resilient target, knives do not "bottom out" and achieve full penetration every time. As such, there is actually a basis for measurable performance comparison.

Michael,

Making a few assumptions, it's obvious to me why your tests favor the acute points for penetration depth.

Because you are stabbing at a vertical target, you only have as much force as the inertia from the arc. In essence, your machine seems to be an analog of the snap-cut test Demko performs. The secondary point is significantly more acute than the belly of the traditional knife, so of course it will be favored in such a cut.

Disclaimer: I have never stabbed a person. I've never been in a knife fight. I'm not familiar with the dynamics of stab depth and its impact of lethality. I also only carry sheepsfoot blades, so I will most likely never stab a person.

In your professional opinion, does a human swing a knife and allow only the knife's inertia to stab the target?

Wouldn't you find it much more realistic that a human would swing the knife, and continue applying as much force as possible? From how you have described your testing rig, it does not sound to replicate such a scenario.

Assuming there is some baseline figure to penetrate the clothing and ribcage of the BG, and then a negligible amount of resistance thereafter, with the wound depth being an indicator of lethality, the AT blade would be favored in such a test that has an initial impulse (under the assumption the AT blade will get through the ribs of the target with the initial impulse) followed by continued pressure. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

In other words, if a knife can penetrate ribs with the initial impact, isn't a flat resistance curve favored? I would think this is true if a deep wound channel is the favored wound.

Thank you,
Ted

P.S. American Tanto blades are still butt ugly!

[Michael Janich]

Dear Ted:

Again, the important message in all of this is having a testing methodology that provides information relevant to your intended application. I'm confident that I've done that to meet my needs and my preferred tactics. Nevertheless, I'll offer some answers to your questions:

Because you are stabbing at a vertical target, you only have as much force as the inertia from the arc.

Yes. That is by design to keep the impact force consistent.

In essence, your machine seems to be an analog of the snap-cut test Demko performs.

No. I'm creating a thrusting force and he's cutting with a wrist snap. The two are completely different.

In your professional opinion, does a human swing a knife and allow only the knife's inertia to stab the target?

No. That's exactly why I chose a ballistic pendulum rather than hanging the knife from a string and swinging it at the target. The weight of the pendulum adds significant inertia to the knife. Also, as I mentioned in my post, I also took the time to thrust knives into the target by hand and adjusted the height of the release point of the pendulum to approximate the same penetration.

Assuming there is some baseline figure to penetrate the clothing and ribcage of the BG, and then a negligible amount of resistance thereafter, with the wound depth being an indicator of lethality, the AT blade would be favored in such a test that has an initial impulse (under the assumption the AT blade will get through the ribs of the target with the initial impulse) followed by continued pressure. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

Thrusting through the ribs is not high on my list of tactics, so it's not relevant to my needs.

In other words, if a knife can penetrate ribs with the initial impact, isn't a flat resistance curve favored? I would think this is true if a deep wound channel is the favored wound.

As I explained, the real advantages of the AT blade profile are that it has extreme point strength and it achieves the full cross-sectional dimension of the blade very quickly. That allows it to penetrate hard, thin surfaces and create a big hole that allows the rest of the blade to slide through into the underlying target. If that's what your needs require, go for it.

As shown in the Cold Steel video, if you put enough force behind a thrust and completely stabilize the target ALL knives will penetrate to the hilt. With full penetration, the blade with the widest blade profile--especially near the tip--will obviously have the widest wound channel.

For my needs, the idea of simulating a reverse-grip stab into a target laying on a solid surface isn't really relevant and does nothing to quantify the differences in drag and penetration ability of various blade profiles. In that context, a screwdriver or a wood chisel will perform just as well as a knife.

Stay safe,

Mike

[FSS]

Agree.
The most basic Military 100 yr+ old training tells you to go sideways into the ribcage.
Not sure I have ever even seen anyone mention this..............

Food for thought...........

Either just a bit below the armpit *or* icepick style behind the opponent's left clavicle as these require less penetrative force and/or distance to hit either the heart or the Aorta.

It seems to me that these are the exactly the types of attacks that the AT would excel at. Great tip strength to cut through the bone then less resistance for the rest of the blade to follow. At least, I believe that Michael Janich would tell you.

Equally effective is a low line attack that starts just above the groin (edge up) and pulls upward until it reach the rib cage. For this attack the double edge dagger with a thinner blade might be the slightly better design. But the AT will make your advisory just as dead.

But the Kukri is the simplest attack. Start with a chopping motion at the neck and shoulder and stop when it exits the lower rip cage. For this the AT is far from Adequate. Like MJ says each knife has is strengths and weakness.

I believe that most “combat” knife use is of the “One Wound” variety, and that the strength of a strike that is hard to deflect is paramount. Is the knife make a 10% larger wound channel make your advisory 10% more dead?

[defenestrate]

I should probably point out that the side of ribcage strike I mention is not where I would want to go given the choice - just that it is a shorter, less obfuscated route to the heart then other direct cardiac type stabbing strikes. Would certainly prefer the posterior of clavicle strike (which would favor a spike or easily twistable narrow blade IMO), but even then the neck is so much easier to hit as a forceful strike from any direction with a sharp blade and good mechanics is much more likely to stop an attack fairly quickly. That said, there have been excellent discussions on here re: escalation of force and mechanically disabling strikes vs. one-shot-fatal strikes. I fall somewhat in between in my opinion of what works best. I don't anticipate having a knife in an SD situation that doesn't involve imminent danger to my life or the lives of others that I love so I pretty much figure on hitting and destroying as vital an area as possible as quickly as possible under those circumstances. In real life this can be much more difficult than on practice targets or even with live partner training but it is hwo I hope to have prepared well enough for if the need should ever arise and I am left with no other option.

FWIW, while the Kukri strike you describe should be rather effective with a great chopper, it is considerably less effort to focus on striking the neck directly. If you can cleave a ribcage in half, you can probably more easily do the same with a neck.

[JohnAPA]

The ironic thing about he "feud" is that both MJ and LT emphasize disabling the attacking limb and NOT stabbing to stike vital organs as first priority. Although they do approach the process very differently.

[psychophipps]

Equally effective is a low line attack that starts just above the groin (edge up) and pulls upward until it reach the rib cage. For this attack the double edge dagger with a thinner blade might be the slightly better design. But the AT will make your advisory just as dead.

One of the drills that I was taught when I had my crash course in blade tactics was similar to this. The method I was taught used an inverted-edge knife held in a hammer grip and it utilized an angled thrust caused by the arc of the arm followed by a pull-cut on retraction to open up the initial puncture wound. The basic drill was a quick one, two, three at: 1) combination of a lunging biuji strike to the eyes or other high-line attack to get their attention while thrusting the blade between the legs and retracting into the femoral or across the groin, 2) an arm hook or hang of some sort while blowing through them and thrusting again into the lower torso, typically between the belly button and the pubic bone for most folks judging by my bruising afterwards, with another ripping retraction, and 3) another thrust up under the ribs with the pull-cut retraction to open it up into the liver or respiratory system with an attempted base disruption. The methodology for the knife techniques was pretty much always mobility disruption, ability to fight disruption, vital systems disruption. It had a Filipino name that I have forgotten since it was a "crash course" and over 15 years ago, but I always called it, only half-jokingly, "D-Blocking".

Two issues I saw besides the inner-thigh cutting was that people tend to die really darn slow from abdominal wounds. The whole "gut shot" thing can be a very long, painful, and unfortunately mobile process, if they can feel pain at all, so it's probably not the best stopping method. Same goes for the liver/respiratory shot. It's definitely good to get some major hydraulic damage going in case you need to sit them out until they drop. The only problem lies in, well...the unfortunate tendency of violent attackers deciding to continue their assault rather than "sitting it out" like you hoped.

Most knife attack reports I read about mention that the victim often didn't realize that they were stabbed unless it somehow became glaringly obvious in the attack. Most think that they're just being punched so this methodology has to be looked at through the lens of real attacks ending with a fatality but not a quick stop like in a 1980s cop show where everyone goes down in one stab with a steak knife in the abdomen.

[Ski]

Dear Ted:

Again, the important message in all of this is having a testing methodology that provides information relevant to your intended application. I'm confident that I've done that to meet my needs and my preferred tactics. Nevertheless, I'll offer some answers to your questions:

Yes. That is by design to keep the impact force consistent.

No. I'm creating a thrusting force and he's cutting with a wrist snap. The two are completely different.

No. That's exactly why I chose a ballistic pendulum rather than hanging the knife from a string and swinging it at the target. The weight of the pendulum adds significant inertia to the knife. Also, as I mentioned in my post, I also took the time to thrust knives into the target by hand and adjusted the height of the release point of the pendulum to approximate the same penetration.

Thrusting through the ribs is not high on my list of tactics, so it's not relevant to my needs.

As I explained, the real advantages of the AT blade profile are that it has extreme point strength and it achieves the full cross-sectional dimension of the blade very quickly. That allows it to penetrate hard, thin surfaces and create a big hole that allows the rest of the blade to slide through into the underlying target. If that's what your needs require, go for it.

As shown in the Cold Steel video, if you put enough force behind a thrust and completely stabilize the target ALL knives will penetrate to the hilt. With full penetration, the blade with the widest blade profile--especially near the tip--will obviously have the widest wound channel.

For my needs, the idea of simulating a reverse-grip stab into a target laying on a solid surface isn't really relevant and does nothing to quantify the differences in drag and penetration ability of various blade profiles. In that context, a screwdriver or a wood chisel will perform just as well as a knife.

Stay safe,

Mike

Exactly the answers I was digging for.

Thanks Mike!

Ted

[FSS]

FWIW, while the Kukri strike you describe should be rather effective with a great chopper, it is considerably less effort to focus on striking the neck directly. If you can cleave a ribcage in half, you can probably more easily do the same with a neck.

I believe the Gurkhas used this method in order to prevent hitting their fellow Gurkhas. Horizontal Sweeping attack will cost you friends along with the fact that the musculature of the human body lends itself more powerful vertical chops rather than lateral sweeps.

All three of the attacks I described are just that, attacks. They are in no way, shape or form self defensive. They are best use is when your victim has not had time to defend himself or better yet before he knows he is being attacked. They are not used in a contest or duel. They are used to reducing your adversary as quickly as possible without unduly endangering your allies. They are combat strikes. To my mind combat is not as much about winning a fight as it is about achieving an objective at costs that are considered acceptable.

IMO urban self-defence employing knife is a rarity. When those situations arise that call for SD or family protection the knife is best used to stall for time (long distance drill) while your loved ones flee with the idea that you will be right behind them ASAP.

[defenestrate]

FSS,
I was really thinking more along the lines of an angular strike, starting behind the jaw and below the base of the skull with the sweet spot of the Kukri and following through down toward the top center of the sternum, toward that dent between the collarbones (unless you are striking from high above the target this will probably put the sweet spot through everything fleshy and perhaps depending on blade style, arc, etc allow the less-hardened tip to fragment the cervical vertebrae as it arcs through). I would not advocate a sweeping horizontal strike with a long blade if I expect there to be buddies within the potential followthrough arc - on the contrary, the whole point is that my suggested attack would quite completely disable an attacker without so much edge damage and required force as chopping someone's ribcage in half. I hope that makes sense.

That said, I understand your viewpoint and strongly agree about the use of knives as SD tools in populated non-combat environs. Good points, and I can certainly see where you're coming from.

[enduraguy]

This ''rebuttal'' coming from someone who offers products along the same lines as most of the ''Frost Cutlery'' product line, or something equally over-priced and gimmicky. LOL. Lynn Thompson is about as credible of a source in the knife industry as Bill Clinton would be as a guest speaker at an NRA rally.

[FSS]

FSS,
I wazs really thinking more along the lines of an angular strike, starting behind the jaw and below the base of the skull with the sweet spot of the Kukri and following through down toward the top center of the sternum, toward that dent between the collarbones (unless you are striking from high above the target this will probably put the sweet spot through everything fleshy and perhaps depending on blade style, arc, etc allow the less-hardened tip to fragment the cervical vertebrae as it arcs through). I

I understand and agree. I have always felt that many attacks are describe with a bit of dark clinical hyperbolae I.E.: Stop when you have exited the other side.