Why so skinny military tip

[unit]

Watching non-knife people use knives makes me leery of lending them anything...even my beater dragonfly.

Pulling stapes, cutting metal twist ties, you name it.

Let me preface by saying that I only loan to people I *REALLY* like. That said, I am confident that I can fix most of the damage they do to my knife, it is the damage they do to themselves that bothers me.

[vampyrewolf]

I wonder if clovisc has any pics of the 440v millie I traded him. I wasn't gentle with my first millie by any stretch, expected it to break a few times.

Haven't had the opportunity to torture either of my s30v millies yet.

[Scottie3000]

Im glad Sal designed a knife instead of a sharp pry bar. I like most military ave a multi plier tool, so if i need a knife I use the millie, if i need to grab, pry or screw, i use the gerber.

[chuck_roxas45]

Working with bamboo as part of general maintenance for a Nipa and Bamboo hut is typically hard on knives. A lot of tip work is often necessary to make the bamboo floor slats fit the support members. Sometimes bamboo workers also use the tip of their knives to cut holes in bamboo slats by pressing the tip into the bamboo and twisting clockwise and counterclockwise. The tip on my saber ground endura can do this with aplomb but in this case it is the handle that flexes. I am quite leery of using the tip of my military for this kind of work. Now I know that there are woodworking chisels that can do this job better, but sometimes my knife is all I have. So does this mean that jobs like this are not a job for a folding knife? Or should the folding knife be designed to fit the job? I can not be carrying a tool box with me all the time, but I do carry a knife most of the time. Should my knives just be used for opening letters, cutting cardboard, and slicing food? I think that the usefulness of a knife is it's versatility, I don't want a sharpened crowbar that can be used only for prying but I want a robust tip that I can bear down without breaking a few millimeters off. Of all the spydies I've held, the military fits my hand the best but I can't use it for that anyway, that's why it's a dedicated SD blade.

[The Deacon]

Working with bamboo as part of general maintenance for a Nipa and Bamboo hut is typically hard on knives. A lot of tip work is often necessary to make the bamboo floor slats fit the support members. Sometimes bamboo workers also use the tip of their knives to cut holes in bamboo slats by pressing the tip into the bamboo and twisting clockwise and counterclockwise. The tip on my saber ground endura can do this with aplomb but in this case it is the handle that flexes. I am quite leery of using the tip of my military for this kind of work. Now I know that there are woodworking chisels that can do this job better, but sometimes my knife is all I have. So does this mean that jobs like this are not a job for a folding knife? Or should the folding knife be designed to fit the job? I can not be carrying a tool box with me all the time, but I do carry a knife most of the time. Should my knives just be used for opening letters, cutting cardboard, and slicing food? I think that the usefulness of a knife is it's versatility, I don't want a sharpened crowbar that can be used only for prying but I want a robust tip that I can bear down without breaking a few millimeters off. Of all the spydies I've held, the military fits my hand the best but I can't use it for that anyway, that's why it's a dedicated SD blade.

Nothing can possibly please everyone, or be suitable for every purpose. The fact that the Military has remained in the lineup for fourteen years with no changes to the blade's shape or grind would tend to indicate most users like it the way it is. Just like some folks choose to "improve" the D4 and E4 by making the tips more acute, you do have the option of "bending your Military to your will" by intentionally removing a couple millimeters from its and re-profiling it to be more robust.

[chuck_roxas45]

Nothing can possibly please everyone, or be suitable for every purpose. The fact that the Military has remained in the lineup for fourteen years with no changes to the blade's shape or grind would tend to indicate most users like it the way it is. Just like some folks choose to "improve" the D4 and E4 by making the tips more acute, you do have the option of "bending your Military to your will" by intentionally removing a couple millimeters from its and re-profiling it to be more robust.

I'm just saying what I feel about my military in the face of multiple posts practically calling it a perfect knife. I'm not asking for any alterations or any new production, but I would be happy if I got a stouter blade. About reprofiling the tip, I don't even want to break it off accidentally more so grind it away. Additionally, the uses of a knife are limited only by the user's imagination, so saying that I am not using my knife as a knife should be used, if I put my tip in jeopardy is a not, IMHO, my limitation, but a limitation of the poster's imagination as to what a knife's uses might be.

[jlamb]

Thanks for all the great information, definitely some interesting viewpoints! I should be receiving my military today in the mail, I am really pumped. I know for sure I wont be doing anything with the knife that would cause damage, but I was just curious what the rest of the collective thought about such a fine point on a big blade.

[yablanowitz]

Working with bamboo as part of general maintenance for a Nipa and Bamboo hut is typically hard on knives. A lot of tip work is often necessary to make the bamboo floor slats fit the support members. Sometimes bamboo workers also use the tip of their knives to cut holes in bamboo slats by pressing the tip into the bamboo and twisting clockwise and counterclockwise. The tip on my saber ground endura can do this with aplomb but in this case it is the handle that flexes. I am quite leery of using the tip of my military for this kind of work. Now I know that there are woodworking chisels that can do this job better, but sometimes my knife is all I have. So does this mean that jobs like this are not a job for a folding knife? Or should the folding knife be designed to fit the job? I can not be carrying a tool box with me all the time, but I do carry a knife most of the time. Should my knives just be used for opening letters, cutting cardboard, and slicing food? I think that the usefulness of a knife is it's versatility, I don't want a sharpened crowbar that can be used only for prying but I want a robust tip that I can bear down without breaking a few millimeters off. Of all the spydies I've held, the military fits my hand the best but I can't use it for that anyway, that's why it's a dedicated SD blade.

I'm curious about something. Is bamboo harder than white oak? I've made starter holes in oak the way you decribe for bamboo, using my Military. My S90V Millie gets used for a general purpose demolition tool almost every day. The most I've ever managed to break off is about half the width of the edge bevel. That is to say, the part that is the same width and thickness on the Military as it is on the Endura, Native, Cold Steel Tanto and Emerson CQC-6. In fact, many years ago I snapped off a quarter inch of the tip on my Tanto piercing 5/16" sheetrock, something I've done a hundred times without damaging a Miliary's "delicate" tip.

For that matter, I've done a lot of the sort of work you decribe on materials harder than bamboo with that old stockman in the photos. Yes, the one with the tip half as thick as the Military. The finer the tip, the easier it pierces - if you let the tool do the work instead of forcing it. Would it be my tool of choice for that job? No, a cordless drill with the right size bit would be my preference. Would I hesitate to use that old non-locking stockman if it was all I had handy? Not for a second.

If you are that concerned about the edge bevel portion of the tip, the solution is obvious. Put the knife in a glass case instead of using it, because you apparently believe it is a work of art. Frankly, I consider it a tool. Losing length a millimeter at a time is just normal wear.

[chuck_roxas45]

Aaaww, why do I even bother? Ok, the military is a perfect knife! satisfied?

[cckw]

the big fixed blades are closer to the multi-use type tool. a folder is cutting only.

[Blerv]

There are advantages and disadvantages to all designs currently being used by knife companies. As Spyderco leans towards performance they have weeded out inferior materials and methods.

The confusion comes with a plethora of different knives. These feature different steels, grinds, locks, handles, materials, build-locations, etc.

Make a convex 8mm thick folder and people will complain it slices poorly (because it likely will with an obtuse edge geometry). Make a high-hollow ground 2mm knife and people will say it's not sturdy enough. You can't please everyone so there are different knives out there (Military, Manix2, Gayle Bradley, Stretch, etc).

Even the fabled FFG blade has downfalls compared to other grinds. There are only so many ways you can shape a piece of steel and a trade-off for everything.

Note: summary - all good, just different. Luckily we have a FEW to choose from =)

[chuck_roxas45]

I totally agree with you Blerv, but being told it is normal wear to lose 1mm of your tip at a time is normal wear is, well, wearing me down. :D . At 102mm, I'd get to use a military 102 times.

[yablanowitz]

Okay, apparently you've missed my point completely, so let me ask you this question: You said "I want a robust tip that I can bear down without breaking a few millimeters off. Of all the spydies I've held, the military fits my hand the best but I can't use it for that anyway"...How many Militarys did you break determining that? Ten? Twenty? Or did you just look at it and say, "that won't work."

Here are some comparison pictures of my beater and its back-up. Two and a half years of no holds barred renovation work. Drywall repairs, caulk and grout removal, mastic adhesive removal, plywood and particle board trimming and shaping, mud scraping, lawnmower deck cleaning, gasket scraping, cable cutting...you get the picture.







Yes, it's a little shorter. At the current rate, it should last until I retire even if I don't ease up on it.

[chuck_roxas45]

No, it's you who's missed my point. If I did break off a tip, I would have said so. In one of my posts I said I was leery of using a point that thin but this posting and counter posting is getting to be hard work now. I was just kinda fantasizing for a more robust tip for whatever purpose I need it to be and you jump on me for saying so. If you know how to use that fragile of a point in hard use and in such a way that you don't break anything off(except for a millimeter at a time for normal wear) then hurray for you! I do not think I have the skill to make sure that I won't break the tip off when I....ahhh what's the use? say what you want. I'm out of here.

[ChapmanPreferred]

I'm sure the Military is not perfect but I do really enjoy using it. I'm not EDC'ing one right now but when I did, it accomplished every cutting task I requested of it. I did not have any issues with the tip of that model in any cutting task.

I did buy a Military with about .5" of the tip broken clean off, but after some time with my belt grinder, it bares a stronger resemblence to my other Military models. I also spoke to a young man from NJ a number of times who took the tip off of his BG-42 Military while doing some "light batoning" trying to build a shelter.

All this is to reinforce what The Deacon wrote already in this thread. Not every model will satisfy all ELU's needs/desires. The Military has repeatedly met and exceeded my needs so I appreciate its design and utility.

[jlamb]

Okay, apparently you've missed my point completely, so let me ask you this question: You said "I want a robust tip that I can bear down without breaking a few millimeters off. Of all the spydies I've held, the military fits my hand the best but I can't use it for that anyway"...How many Militarys did you break determining that? Ten? Twenty? Or did you just look at it and say, "that won't work."

Here are some comparison pictures of my beater and its back-up. Two and a half years of no holds barred renovation work. Drywall repairs, caulk and grout removal, mastic adhesive removal, plywood and particle board trimming and shaping, mud scraping, lawnmower deck cleaning, gasket scraping, cable cutting...you get the picture.







Yes, it's a little shorter. At the current rate, it should last until I retire even if I don't ease up on it.

So, I guess you are pretty much making your own paramilitary- milimeter by milimeter!!

[marcus1]

yablanowitz: you may have just made my Military my EDC forever (well, not likely as sometimes I want a smaller knife or one with more "meat" on the handle. Why I have more than one Spidie now).

As I think someone else said, Spyderco offers verity so that WE (the user) can decide which works best for us (trade-offs of each type of blade/steel/etc).

But if/when I break the tip off my Military I may "cry" to you and ask how to fix it :)
I'm not afraid to use a knife in more ways than its technically intended. As chuck_roxas45 stated, I don't carry a toolbox around all the time. So my knife has no other choice but to be "more than it can be" :)

The point of this all: its up to the individual user!

The point of this thread (for me): we (the ones that agree the tip may be a bit thin) wouldn't mind seeing a thicker tip on the Military (sure some won't like it; which is why I would hope the regular Military doesn't change).

[Jazz]

The fine tip works great for the Millie because it's a thicker blade. My problem is with the FFG on the Delicas, etc. that are thinner. They really should be a high flat grind, not full. Now, don't say, "well, don't pry with them" - I don't, but it really could be made a bit stronger without sacrificing slicing ability. Look at the D3 - higher grind, cuts great, and the tip is stronger. Also, for SD purposes, I want a little more assurance that the blade won't bend or break.

- best wishes, Jazz.

[v8r]

Just a thought, but the older Millies have slightly thicker blade stock.My buddy has a 440v millie and the blade stock is thicker than my BG-42 or Orange Millie.Its tip could possibly be a little beefier than the current millie?

[jlamb]

I got my military on friday, and I now really understand what people mean by it just kind of hiding away in your pocket. For a really big folder, it does just disappear. I had it in a lower leg pocket in my shorts and I didnt even feel it there. I am not one bit worried about breaking the tip since I will only be slicing with it. It feels quite a bit lighter than my manix in carpenter steel. Really glad I picked it up!