Liner lock for self defense knife?

[JNewell]

Mike, correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the take-aways for me from your MBC video was that the defenses using a knife that are most likely to stop an attack are not necessarily the most likely to be fatal. (I do not mean to trivialize at all the legal or moral responsibilities that attach to use of a deadly force weapon or the gravity and unpredictability of edged tool wounds, having experienced a serious but peripheral wound myself and having seem some very sobering a/v materials in training contexts.)

[LostOutThere]

Thanks for the response, Mr. Janich. That clarifies things.

[markg]

I'm slightly confused as to how one approach or the other has any bearing on the legality of action. Unless I am missing something here, a knife when used as such is a lethal force weapon. To legally use it for the purpose of self defense one must act under reasonable apprehension of death or grievous bodily harm. It's the politically correct thing to say that we don't want to kill anybody, but if lethal force was warranted in the first place...

Obviously if the attack stops, you stop, but if stopping the attack ends up killing them well, it is what it is.

If you defend yourself, and it rises to the level of involving the authorities, then you will need to "use your words" to defend yourself. You must (as you note) establish you were in fear for your life or of grievous bodily harm. It helps if you can establish that you had no means of escape, and that you attempted to de-escalate the situation, etc. In other words, you exhausted every attempt to resolve this matter in more peaceful and less violent means.

Here is the kicker... You need to think of personal defense in several layers. One is keeping yourself alive, the other (and equally important) is to "preserve" your life. The old line "I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" is bunk. I would ALSO not like to be some "dudes" girlfriend in prison for 5 years while my kids graduate from high school and my wife divorces me and the guy who attacked me family sues my estate for all it worth... Then I get out of prison and am a convicted felon... Try getting a job or finding a new love interest on eHarmony.

Most folks who sit on juries (and heck a lot of DA's and prosecutes for that matter) think that if you stick a knife in someone, they turn to dust. Now the reality is, that is not true. They also don't understand that under stress you can stab someone 20 times in a very short period of time. Think about it, how many times have you seen "48 Hours" and the announcer says with a gasp "They were stabbed over 20 times..." Why once is enough right? You have dug a hole and now how do you get out of it? To restate this... Most folks think that a fight stops with one stab, and anything more than this is to call into question your motives and actions. The reality is, reverse grip over hand stab and grab is going to take a LOT more than one stab to end the encounter.

You can articulate why you did what you did. That according to your training this was the most humane and morally defensible action. Why you attempted to cut where you did, that you were acting in ways to end the attack not your attacker's life.

A knife carries with it a stigma. It is the weapon of a criminal, a punk, or an assassin. Far better you shot your way out of the encounter. You defended your life with a knife, great. You now have a mountain to climb in regards to defending your actions... Try not to make that higher than it needs to be.

There are no winners in these kinds of encounters, that is why you exhaust every option. There are no winners, just different degrees of losing. You goal is to minimize your loses.

[chuck_roxas45]

There are no winners in these kinds of encounters, that is why you exhaust every option. There are no winners, just different degrees of losing. You goal is to minimize your loses.

Well said!

[LostOutThere]

Hi, markg. Really well put. I've been through the court system with regard to SD and knives, and you pretty much nailed it. I guess the point I was trying to make is that the skill and methodology used to stop the attack has a lot more bearing on actually stopping the attacker than it does on the legalities of doing so.

[VictorLouis]

If you defend yourself, and it rises to the level of involving the authorities, then you will need to "use your words" to defend yourself. You must (as you note) establish you were in fear for your life or of grievous bodily harm. ...

:eek:

I've come around on this subject EVER, ever so slightly. Say JUST ENOUGH....IF you can....without "diarrhea of the mouth". IF you can point to evidence of your attack, bystanders who may be witness, the direction of flight of your attacker/s, etc. Perhaps a short wording of however you choose to phrase it, "My assailant left me no choice but to use my gun/knife/mace/taser.." etc. OTHER THAN that, shut-the-heck-UP still applies. :D

.... I would ALSO not like to be some "dudes" girlfriend in prison for 5 years while my kids graduate from high school and my wife divorces me and the guy who attacked me family sues my estate for all it worth... Then I get out of prison and am a convicted felon... Try getting a job or finding a new love interest on eHarmony. .

While there's truth in your scenario, consider the UP-side. At least your ALIVE, and around to watch your kids grow-up.

Most folks who sit on juries (and heck a lot of DA's and prosecutes for that matter) think that if you stick a knife in someone, they turn to dust. Now the reality is, that is not true. They also don't understand that under stress you can stab someone 20 times in a very short period of time.

This is EXACTLY the same way with a firearm! Even if your fave caliber begins with a .4, apply as-needed until results are achieved. :cool:

A knife carries with it a stigma. It is the weapon of a criminal, a punk, or an assassin. Far better you shot your way out of the encounter.

I agree with you on this one 100%! {Providing your legal environment allows for a firearm!} :)

There are no winners in these kinds of encounters, that is why you exhaust every option. There are no winners, just different degrees of losing. You goal is to minimize your loses.

Again, on this one 100%!

[KaliGman]

I have had a bit of experience with the use of force, documenting that use, testifying in court, and the like. I have been ,and am currently, in command of a group of law enforcement officers. My experiences, research, and training have led me to some conclusions that are a bit outside of what is sometimes parroted on Internet forums and some magazine articles.

These little essays on the Albo Kali Silat website may be of interest to some of those posting in this thread (or maybe not--your mileage may vary):

http://www.albokalisilat.org/rant7.html

http://www.albokalisilat.org/rant8.html

[chuck_roxas45]

KaliGman, what I read in your link in that rant 7 seems to be so on the mark that it sometimes seems funny. The first time I mentioned SD in connection with a folder I got a whole lot of attitude from some outdoorsy knife nuts who want to think of their knives only as tools. keepem sharp.

[markg]

:eek:

I've come around on this subject EVER, ever so slightly. Say JUST ENOUGH....IF you can....without "diarrhea of the mouth". IF you can point to evidence of your attack, bystanders who may be witness, the direction of flight of your attacker/s, etc. Perhaps a short wording of however you choose to phrase it, "My assailant left me no choice but to use my gun/knife/mace/taser.." etc. OTHER THAN that, shut-the-heck-UP still applies. :D

Yes, I agree with that point. If you are being questioned it should always be with legal counsel. In the confusion that follows the event it is far to easy for you to make statements that may harm your defense (even if you are justified). Myself, I will "stick to the script" and anything futher will be with the company of a good laywer.

[AliasNeo07]

Blades are illegal in italy? That's strange, because I thought a citizen could apply for a LTCF as long as it is a .380 or less. I could be wrong.