Liner lock for self defense knife?

[stonyman]

Liner locks are not my favorite locks at all. That is why I would not purchase the milli in the past. I think the framelock, although not bullet proof, can hold up under the conditions of a sd situation. Most of my folders are comprised of backlocks and compression locks, axis locks.......... go figure :rolleyes: I do not like relying on folders for potential dangerous situations, fix blades rule. The truth is folders are convenient and are more than likely with you, when you do/don't need a knife. I guess it boils down to: how much of a compromise are you willing to make? What do you reasonably expect out of your folding knife?

Wadgered against nothing, I would sure like that Millie in my hand in a life or death struggle than nothing. I will work around the imperfections of the design. This company gives the e.l.u. so much to pick from. Take care all and God Bless.

[chuck_roxas45]

I like my military so much that I will find a way to work around the inadvertent release problem. Thanks to Mr. Janich for making me aware that this is a possible occurrence. Now that I know about this I have experimented with different grips that minimize the chance of this happening. I was always the kind of person who worked around and adapted to my equipment. Same thing with my guns.Like some people really do a lot of grip reduction and such like, I prefer to make an adjustment with my method and my technique. I feel that this attitude makes me more versatile.

[liltemp1]

C-46 Bob Lum It's all good. :spyder:

[Reeper22]

I'm curious about the different grips while holding a Military. It seems some like to use the thumb ramp for a more controlled and strong motion. However, I was thinking it might be better to hold the handle further back to take advantage of the oversized handle and so that you are not gripping the liner cut out.

I also wondered about a Civilian for self defense but I don't think I'd want a knife that could only slash and couldn't stab. What are your guys' thoughts on the Cilvilian?

[chuck_roxas45]

I'm curious about the different grips while holding a Military. It seems some like to use the thumb ramp for a more controlled and strong motion. However, I was thinking it might be better to hold the handle further back to take advantage of the oversized handle and so that you are not gripping the liner cut out.

I'm experimenting with a hammer grip farther back, hard to stab with it though. what I'm favoring at the moment is wrapping my index finger around the bulge in the handle forward of the cutout and behind the choil, thumb still on the ramp. this way no inadvertent release, even with enough torque to turn the knife around and out of my grip. A reverse or pakal grip would also work but it reduces range and makes it harder to execute the disabling slashes that Mr. Janich uses.

[Reeper22]

I don't want to derail from the liner lock theme of the thread but I'm curious about reverse grips. It doesn't feel natural for someone who hasn't been trained. Holding my Warrior in a reverse grip I don't feel as capable as I do with a more traditional straighter blade in a forward grip.

[chuck_roxas45]

I am far from being an expert but I will try to give some info that might answer some of your questions.

The reverse grip holds the knife at an angle where your wrist is more aligned with your forearm which is supposed to mean a firmer strike resulting in deeper cuts. Speaking for myself I prefer to hold a knife like the warrior that has a point curving upward and with a full tang, in a normal hammer grip.

We have tried out a number of blade configurations on banana plants, which is the closest cheap flesh analogue here, and find that blades with points with a downward angle when held horizontal, are the most effective in slashing with a reverse grip. generally speaking, karambits did well in our rather rudimentary and unscientific tests. this is probably true of hawkbills too.

Some cuts are also more natural and instinctive with a reverse grip. But range is severely reduced from the point forward grips styles.

[MCM]

Liner lock for self defense knife?

Yes, just buy a good one.

[Blerv]

As MCM said. All liner locks are NOT created equal. The liner lock is probably the most done "tactical knife" lock and they rang from scary to tanks.

IMO the Military, Gayle Bradley, Barong, and more would never have been done if it wasn't safe. Many have safety choils/ricassos built in.

[Bolster]

Do you guys have so much presence of mind, that you are actually able to make relatively subtle adjustments to grip, in a moment of crisis?

My hat's off to you. In my moments of crisis, I'm just lucky to hang on to my weapon by any means. Even heavily checkered or grooved items have felt snot-slippery in my hands.

I really doubt I would be able to make any subtle adjustments to grip in the moment of need...

[Dr. Snubnose]

I'm experimenting with a hammer grip farther back, hard to stab with it though. what I'm favoring at the moment is wrapping my index finger around the bulge in the handle forward of the cutout and behind the choil, thumb still on the ramp. this way no inadvertent release, even with enough torque to turn the knife around and out of my grip. A reverse or pakal grip would also work but it reduces range and makes it harder to execute the disabling slashes that Mr. Janich uses.

This is not true, Mr. Janich can use his disabling slashes just as easy and as well in Pikal as he can do it with a forward grip..so can anyone else trained in the Pikal grip techniques....Doc :D

[Dr. Snubnose]

Just my opinion now...I don't trust any lock on any folding knife for SD...Some are no doubt better than others, I like the compression lock best of all...but to be honest I never trust any folder's lock for serious business. I'd rather have a smaller fixed blade than a folder for SD....but that's just me....Doc :D

[chuck_roxas45]

[/B]

This is not true, Mr. Janich can use his disabling slashes just as easy and as well in Pikal as he can do it with a forward grip..so can anyone else trained in the Pikal grip techniques....Doc :D

That's quite true for Mr. Janich Doc, but I was talking about me. For myself slashing with a reverse grip is entirely doable but it involves bigger body movements. For example, try to slash the forearm of an arm extended towards you at with the hand at your face level with a conventional grip and a reverse grip. Doing that with the reverse grip while simultaneously evading the slash involves turning my body a bit more than with the conventional grip and takes a lot more skill. I would also need to be a bit closer to do the strike. with the conventional grip, you just move your body back and slash with a relatively small movement of your forearm and wrist.

@bolstermanic: in raquet sports like tennis and badminton you find a "sweet spot" on the grip where things are most comfortable and you are most confident. With practice you can find this spot and position your hand almost everytime. I'd like to think this is the same with a favorite ergonomic knife. of course, this will countless hours of practice. In pistol techniques too, you effectively implement a change like this through hours of dry firing.

[KaliGman]

I have a lot of liner locks, mostly from Emerson or Spyderco. I have had exactly three "fail." One was an Emerson that I had beaten the crud out of and on which, due to wear, the liner lock would slide, but not completely disengage. I sent it in for repair and fully expected to pay for the repair, as this was wear and tear and not a manufacturing defect, but Mr. Emerson fixed it for free and had it back to me in "good as new" condition in under seven days. The other two "failures" I had were both liner locks from a German company that occassionally sends me knives to test and evaluate. Both failed under testing, but the failure was the liner lock sliding all the way across and keeping the blade from being closed (unless you pried it with a screwdriver). This is the kind of failure you really would not mind too much in a defensive situation.

i have never, in all the testing I have done with Spyderco Militaries, had a lock inadvertenly disengage. Whether a lock will inadvertently disengage in your grip is largely determined by you, your hand shape, gripping methodology, gripping force, and the like. Anyone else's results with the same knife may or may not apply. I far prefer my CPMD2 Military to my Titanium RIL Military for "serious defensive use" due to weight, ergonomics and handling, and that nice, grippy G-10. To the OP, I would say, if you like your Sage, test it a bit in various grips and if it does not disengage on you, you are probably good to go. The big cutout for the liner lock would not make the Sage one of my top choices, however. Get a bit of training, please, if you are at all serious about defending yourself.

The strongest and quickest into action of any style defensive knife is usually a fixed blade, and I carry such a blade quite a bit more often than most people. However, the folder is what many people have on them "when bad things happen," and knowing how to deploy and use one should be in your defensive skill set.

As for Pakal, I do not like the edge in Pakal methodology, though it does have some uses and we do practice it a bit in Albo Kali Silat. It is not a primary or even secondary grip option in the art, though. Edge out Pakal is utilized frequently in our system. For those interested, here are a few observations about Pakal edge in methodology:

http://www.albokalisilat.org/pakal_critique.html

[Michael Janich]

[/B]

This is not true, Mr. Janich can use his disabling slashes just as easy and as well in Pikal as he can do it with a forward grip..so can anyone else trained in the Pikal grip techniques....Doc :D

I hate to disagree, but I actually find Pikal/reverse-grip in all its forms more limited than standard grip and less suitable for applying the full scope of the MBC targeting system.

If I do use reverse grip, I prefer edge out (which is still a form of "Pikal") because it allows me to hit most of MBC's preferred targets reasonably well. Even then, the body mechanics and flow of reverse-grip is different than that of standard grip. These days, we actually use it as more of a training methodology for improvised weapon use than pure knife tactics.

Edge-in tactics are, in my opinion, primarily offensive. The whole idea is to get the other guy to block so you can cut and clear the blocking limb and proceed to stabbing. If he doesn't block, he gets stabbed. While it's a very effective approach, it's not self-defense and doesn't fit the ethical and legally responsible approach that characterizes MBC.

One other note: With the exception of the name of a specific drill ("Cover and Slash") or talking about rock guitarists, I don't use the term "slash." To me it connotes a desperate, uncalculated action. It is also limited to ballistic application, which means that the arm is in continuous motion during the cut. I prefer the term "cut," which is a deliberate, calculated action and may be done ballistically or as a "pressure" cut, in which the edge is placed to achieve accurate targeting before pressure is applied to cut.

I hope this clarifies the MBC approach to things.

Stay safe,

Mike

[butterknife]

Someone else made an interesting point. When you've got blood on your hands, what are the technical limitations of having a slippery grip? What should you do and not do if you realize you can't get a good grip on your knife?

[Dr. Snubnose]

I hate to disagree, but I actually find Pikal/reverse-grip in all its forms more limited than standard grip and less suitable for applying the full scope of the MBC targeting system.

If I do use reverse grip, I prefer edge out (which is still a form of "Pikal") because it allows me to hit most of MBC's preferred targets reasonably well. Even then, the body mechanics and flow of reverse-grip is different than that of standard grip. These days, we actually use it as more of a training methodology for improvised weapon use than pure knife tactics.

Edge-in tactics are, in my opinion, primarily offensive. The whole idea is to get the other guy to block so you can cut and clear the blocking limb and proceed to stabbing. If he doesn't block, he gets stabbed. While it's a very effective approach, it's not self-defense and doesn't fit the ethical and legally responsible approach that characterizes MBC.

One other note: With the exception of the name of a specific drill ("Cover and Slash") or talking about rock guitarists, I don't use the term "slash." To me it connotes a desperate, uncalculated action. It is also limited to ballistic application, which means that the arm is in continuous motion during the cut. I prefer the term "cut," which is a deliberate, calculated action and may be done ballistically or as a "pressure" cut, in which the edge is placed to achieve accurate targeting before pressure is applied to cut.

I hope this clarifies the MBC approach to things.

Stay safe,

Mike

Gottcha Mike...I fully understand your position...I should have been more specific, I am not a proponent of the singer sewing machine methods of blade facing inwards....I was making reference to Pikal (Blade edge facing out).....and I'll own it for myself when I say, because I have trained many years in this method, that I find little difference in being able to apply the short cutting methods you describe with either tactic...Doc :D

[LostOutThere]

Edge-in tactics are, in my opinion, primarily offensive. The whole idea is to get the other guy to block so you can cut and clear the blocking limb and proceed to stabbing. If he doesn't block, he gets stabbed. While it's a very effective approach, it's not self-defense and doesn't fit the ethical and legally responsible approach that characterizes MBC.

I'm slightly confused as to how one approach or the other has any bearing on the legality of action. Unless I am missing something here, a knife when used as such is a lethal force weapon. To legally use it for the purpose of self defense one must act under reasonable apprehension of death or grievous bodily harm. It's the politically correct thing to say that we don't want to kill anybody, but if lethal force was warranted in the first place...

Obviously if the attack stops, you stop, but if stopping the attack ends up killing them well, it is what it is.

[Buffalohump]

I personally feel the Chinook is the primary self-defence folder in the Spyderco line-up BUT it needs to be re-looked to give it better penetration abilities.

While it is a great slasher and offers the back-cut properties that is unique to the bowie design, but the clip point is too upswept for effective stabbing.

But the handle ergos and back-lock are ideal for an SD blade.

There should also be a trainer available for this knife.

[Michael Janich]

I'm slightly confused as to how one approach or the other has any bearing on the legality of action. Unless I am missing something here, a knife when used as such is a lethal force weapon. To legally use it for the purpose of self defense one must act under reasonable apprehension of death or grievous bodily harm. It's the politically correct thing to say that we don't want to kill anybody, but if lethal force was warranted in the first place...

Obviously if the attack stops, you stop, but if stopping the attack ends up killing them well, it is what it is.

You are very correct that ANY time you bring a potentially lethal weapon into a fight, you must be justified in doing so. The difference is what you do with it once you have it in hand. Again, it comes down to how to "stop" the attacker quickly and decisively through physiological means. That's where there are many misconceptions about what knives do.

Stay safe,

Mike