VG-10 or ZDP-189 as EDC ?

[JaM]

Hi all,

I was wondering what the general concensus was (or is) on these two types of steel.
I might be picking up an Endura 4 in CE with either VG-10 or ZDP-189, and am curious what most of you would choose as "general utility" type of steel.

It will not be used for yard-work (or in the garden :) ) for example, I'll leave that to my Tenacious.
It will be used for cutting paper/cardboard, plastic bottles, rope, vegetables and meat, that kind of stuff.
I have not really experienced the "rustyness" of ZDP i.e. I have an E4 in SE that doenst show "rust" or something similar. So I am not really worried about that.
I do however worry about my sharpening skills with ZDP. I have no problems with VG-10, but have no idea about sharpening ZDP (the SE I have is still sharp but should be touched up, perhaps...).

So please post comments/opinions ! :)


Best regards,

Jan

[Murdoc]

I personally would choose (and HAVE chosen actually) VG-10 instead of ZDP. My ZDP Endura started staining within the very first days of EDC, and that never happened to me with VG-10. If you want to cut vegetables and meat with it, you would have to clean the blade immediately after use, (depending to what you're cutting) to avoid staining.

I can not get my ZDP blades as sharp and shavin as my VG-10 blades (i own several of both). Maybe I could improve my sharpening skills until I get there, but I've tried pretty hard several times by now and the results don't improve significantly

ZDP IS harder and holds an edge longer, but once it is dull, it is a real PITA to get it sharp again (and in my case, I fail miserably altogether:rolleyes :) . Diamond stones or rods could help there. (I own a byrd Duckfoot since today, maybe I should give it another try with that one.)

Bottom line: for steel junkies and sharpening magicians, ZDP is the way to go. For all others, VG-10 is just as fine, and maybe easier to maintain to boot.

[A.P.F.]

Hi all,

I was wondering what the general concensus was (or is) on these two types of steel.
I might be picking up an Endura 4 in CE with either VG-10 or ZDP-189, and am curious what most of you would choose as "general utility" type of steel.

It will not be used for yard-work (or in the garden :) ) for example, I'll leave that to my Tenacious.
It will be used for cutting paper/cardboard, plastic bottles, rope, vegetables and meat, that kind of stuff.
I have not really experienced the "rustyness" of ZDP i.e. I have an E4 in SE that doenst show "rust" or something similar. So I am not really worried about that.
I do however worry about my sharpening skills with ZDP. I have no problems with VG-10, but have no idea about sharpening ZDP (the SE I have is still sharp but should be touched up, perhaps...).

So please post comments/opinions ! :)


Best regards,

Jan

If sharpening and quick 'touch ups' are an issue for you, you may want to consider staying with VG-10. It takes a very fine edge that is relatively easy to maintain.

On the other hand, ZDP-189 is a terrific steel that will hold it's edge significantly longer than VG-10, but if you neglect frequent 'touch ups', I have found it a bear to sharpen on Arkansas stones. I would say that a Sharpmaker is a mandatory accessory for the super steels.

[JaM]

Ah yes, "staining" was the term I was looking for, not rust, obviously :o ...
I havent really had anything bad with my E4 SE in ZDP, so it seems I do something right there.

And I do have a sharpmaker, but only the brown and white rods. No fancy stuff with diamonds on it that fit in those holes.

^^ that (those posts above this one) is the stuff I am looking for. Thanks so far, but please, keep posting ! :) I find it most informative.

Jan

[anti-torsion]

I love both steels for different reasons. ZDP as it holds an edge super well BUT once that edge goes away it takes a while sitting on the sharpmaker. VG10 is just great all around, good edge holding, corrosion and so on. Personally, I would not buy a ZDP knife that was not a flat or hollow grind, being a sabre defeats the point of such a great steel.

As far as "staining" it's called a patina, and I forced a patina on my ZDP stretch so I don't have to worry about it anymore.

[yowzer]

As far as "staining" it's called a patina, and I forced a patina on my ZDP stretch so I don't have to worry about it anymore.

Yup. Having a patina on a non-stainless knife is a good thing. It gives the knife its own character, and helps to protect against rust. I like 'em better when they're earned the hard way, though.

[bdbender]

Personally, I choose between ZDP (Caly3) and S30V (SageCF) for EDC. No offense to VG-10, just the way I like to play the game. Lately the Sage is getting more pocket time, due to the liner lock, which seems to make more difference in what I reach for than the difference between the steels.

[Falco]

I'll give another vote for VG-10. I do carry a ZDP CF Stretch as well, but I'm finding myself timid to use it on some things for fear of staining. I've never had any ZDP staining or rust or anything like that, its just the general opinion of its easy staining that keeps me from using it on everything I'd like to use it on. Also, I don't know the first thing about sharpening a blade... its probably something I should look into, but if ZDP is as difficult to sharpen as some say, then that would pose a problem for me.

I have more cutting experience with VG-10, and I never have to worry about how I use it. Plus I've been using the same VG-10 Endura 3 for several years now, and I've only taken it in for sharpening once. Given the amount of work it gets, I think it says a lot about VG-10's edge holding.

[Blue72]

As far as "staining" it's called a patina, and I forced a patina on my ZDP stretch so I don't have to worry about it anymore.

Any pics?????

[Blerv]

ZDP is clearly a harder steel and superior for holding an acute edge for a very long time. Corrosion resistance is a distant thought in my mind (as it's clearly more resistant to rust than D2 or M4 and people love those). VG10 will roll/bend like H1 prior to chipping. Harder steels like S30v and ZDP will chip before rolling/burring if pushed or abused.

I consider ZDP the serrated knife of the plain edge world (if that makes sense). The edge holding is simply amazing and I haven't had to sharpen one of mine yet. I wouldn't pay 200% more for a ZDP knife but with Spyderco often it's a mild increase in price. With knives like the FRN Stretch ZDP I think $20 extra is not unreasonable.

It holds an edge longer and takes longer to sharpen. This is a tie in my mind. For extended cutting I have more faith in the ZDP knife because a dull PE knife is next to worthless. The longer the edge lasts, the more use you can get out of a knife because eventually the blade steel slowly recedes.

This said, H1 or VG10 are much more user friendly. They sharpen easier and don't chip as much. One of my favorite "EDC" knives is a Boker Trance and that's AUS6. If it's sharp it works, period.

[stonetone]

It took me a really, really long time to get a nice edge on my D4 ZDP, and I never actually managed it until I thinned it down to from 30/40 to @25/30. I lost a lot of steel in the process, but I guess you'd say I was using it to learn how to sharpen. Probably a bad idea, but I didn't really know what I was in for. Now that it's straightened out, it takes 20 or so swipes per side on the white Sharpmaker stones to bring it back from routine wear, and it's shaving sharp again. Easy to maintain, but a bear to get it there.

VG10, on the other hand, is easy all around in comparison. It dulls and sharpens much faster, and it's mostly a toss-up as to which I can get the sharpest.

I have the best luck sharpening Case's CV, they're the only blades I can get really scary sharp at this point, but I'm probably still learning.

[The Deacon]

I switch back and forth between a ZDP-189 and a VG-10 Stretch. Can't say I've ever noticed any appreciable difference in the way they cut. As has been noted, ZDP holds an edge longer, but also takes longer to sharpen and requires a somewhat different technique than VG-10 to get the best results. I haven't experienced rust on either, but I have managed to stain both.

Frankly, unless you are going to use a knife a lot more than 99% of us do, the knife you want is only available in ZDP-189, or just want the "bragging rights" that go with owning the latest and greatest super steel, I'd say the extra cost of ZDP-189 is very difficult to justify.

[dalefuller]

I have both steels in Delicas and Caly 3s. I tend to prefer VG10 as a work steel for its toughness and ease of resharpening. I use my work knives in a warehouse for cardboard, zip ties, electrical & computer cables, and a few other things. Occasionally I run the edge into a steel support beam or a hidden staple in a box. VG10 has never given me a problem when I've done that. Once in a while, I even drop a knife onto the concrete warehouse floor. My VG10 D4 has not had any damage from those little "incidents".

My wife keeps a ZDP D4 in her desk at work for the heavy, dirty stuff that she doesn't want to use her dog paw Sebbie to do. She also opens boxes, cuts zip ties, and does a bit of computer & network cable maintenance. She oike the ZDP D4 because she's not always having to bring it home for me to sharpen.

I've had no staining issues at all with my ZDP steel.

[JD Spydo]

ZDP is clearly a harder steel and superior for holding an acute edge for a very long time.

I consider ZDP the serrated knife of the plain edge world (if that makes sense).

Blerv that makes excellent sense to me. Because ZDP-189 grabs a cutting surface different than most any other steel I've ever used. When it comes to piercing an animal hide or cutting something extremely tough like leather the ZDP blade just seems to have much less resistance than most other blade steels.

I'm surprised that they dont' make surgical scalpels with ZDP-189. ZDP is truly my favorite steel for very demanding cutting jobs. A plain edge with ZDP-189 truly has different cutting and shearing abilities. I bet ZDP would even be great to make a straight razor with.

[bh49]

Bottom line: for steel junkies and sharpening magicians, ZDP is the way to go. For all others, VG-10 is just as fine, and maybe easier to maintain to boot.

I am not steel junky or sharpening magician, so I choose VG10, which satisfy all my needs. Also, Spyderco didn't make Persian withZDP189 yet. :)

[jwpark]

ZDP-189 is a better steel, but much harder to sharpen compared to VG-10. Especially if you don't have right sharpening equipment for it.

To get the best sharpening results off a ZDP-189 knife, you have to use Japanese water stones which are pretty pricey. An Edge Pro with Shapton or Naniwa Chocera stones will work as well.

I have ZDP-189 Japanese Chef's knife and I love the steel but it's a pain to remove the burr though.

The burr is not as a big problem with my ZDP Caly 3, since folders are ground on a more obtuse angle than japanese kitchen knives.

Jay

[Joshua J.]

IMO ZDP-189 is far preferable to VG-10. Especially if you have any significant amount of cutting to do. Rust resistance is more or less important depending on your climate. If you're worried about sharpening, get some diamonds. They don't care what your knife is made of and work fairly quickly regardless of steel type.

[Aimless]

I used my zdp-189 delica pretty much exclusively for maybe 8 months, including cutting meat and vegetables at times. I never really had a permanent staining problem. However I did recently carry it so that it was was against my skin for maybe a day and the part of the closed blade that was in contact with me rusted in that short time period.

I found that the zdp-189 stayed sharp longer but was harder to sharpen

[Mr Blonde]

Since I have a sharpmaker with all the bells and whistles (diamond and UF stones), I've never had a problem with getting ZDP189 sharp again. Not even with the odd edge that came a bit thick from the factory or something like that.

I enjoy using ZDP189, but that's more fascinitation with edgeholding than anything else. I prefer VG-10 for EDC, stays sharp long enough and is oh so easy to get sharp.

Wouter

[JaM]

All right, thanks for all the info and opinions.

I'm not too worried about the patina on the ZDP, the E4 SE I have with that steel is still doing fine.

I am worried about the fact that I probably cant get a good edge on it. I know VG-10 (a bit now) and I know I can get it quite sharp.
I am not sure if my Sharpmaker is suffiecient for sharpening ZDP, and perhaps I am afraid I dont have the patience to (re)learn how to sharpen ZDP. Different angles ? I'm not sure...
Coupled with he fact that indeed, ZDP is a good steel IF used on sharp angles, and perhaps better suited on a FFG (it looks like that to me, anyway),
I'd probably go for an Endura saber-grind in VG-10 and (perhaps) a Stretch in ZDP, sometime.

For now, I will try and stick to the knives I have at the moment and perhaps persue the CE E4 I am looking for trough trades...

And maybe pick up "freehand" sharpening again on my FFG Tenacious PE.
If I can get that blade with a sharper edge/angle, I might try ZDP too.
It makes a perfect practise-blade for sharpening I think.

Again, thanks for all the info, it was most helpfull ! :)

Best regards,

Jan