Laminated Blades For Hard Use Folders

[Scottie3000]

I was browsing the internet today and found that a competing knife maker that rhymes with "Mold Steel" is set to release it's Voyager series of folders in San Mai III laminated steel (VG-1/420J). What is the Spydieholic opinion on such an idea and would you like to see it in say an Endura/Delica? (rough equivalent to the Voyager (please no flaming)) Discuss...

[The Deacon]

In case you are not aware, Spyderco has been making knives with ZDP-189/420J2 lamimated blades for at least 4 years. Have no idea what VG-1 is, from what I understand, it's "that company's" proprietary name for something else, just as G-2 was, at one time, Spyderco's proprietary name for GIN-1. But, whatever it may be, I seriously doubt it would be better than ZDP-189.

I have a ZDP-189/420J2 Calypso Jr. a ZDP-189/420J2 Caly 3, and a solid ZDP-189 Stretch II, all of which are "users". I find zero difference in terms of performance between the laminates and the solid. Also find no difference in slicing ability between a Calypso Jr in solid VG-10 and the ZDP-189/420J2 laminate version. The only difference I have ever noticed is that the 420J2 outer layers on the laminate scratch much, much, easier than either the ZDP-189 or VG-10 solid blades.

[ChapmanPreferred]

Unless it is a major cost savings for Spyderco, I would not be in favor of laminent VG10/420J2 in the model line up.

[gaj999]

Hard-use folder is like giant shrimp or honest politician, a contradiction in terms.

OK, OK, I know an honest politician is one who stays bought, but given how heavy a folder needs to be made to be almost as strong as a fixed-blade knife, I'll take the fixed. I don't need a brick in my pocket.

I own several laminated blades, including a couple of non-Spydercos, and don't feet that they are any big whoop. either. Count me out.

Gordon

[Blerv]

The hot phrase "hard use folder" seems to have been coined or popularized by the GB folder. While the Manix and Chinook have been here for years, I feel it good to seperate the GB from other classy CF pocket knives.

As for laminating people have been doing it for years. Laminated vg10, vg10 core with 440 outers, simply laminated vg10 for kitchen knives, and others. Damascus is in many ways in this category as is certain sword making which have stood up to time and history.

The difference is that Spyderco laminates good stuff :) . They did ZDP when some were pushing ays8 as the premium steel. Wow, it's got 440c? Hehe.

Why did they laminate? That was how it could be done most logically. I always trust Spyderco for no fluff engineering. Sal could be jamming a manix2 through car hoods but they choose to just perfect and sell. Word of mouth is a good way to sell and the product stands up.

[Monkeywrangler]

Laminate steels have been used a long time in hard use knives--fixed blades anyway. Look at the Swedish/Norwegian/Finnish knives like Helle, Frosts, Martinii etc. You can find a nice selection at Ragnar's. http://www.ragweedforge.com

[skunk_2]

I have noticed is that the 420J2 outer layers on the laminate scratch much, much, easier than either the ZDP-189 or VG-10 solid blades.

i have the laminated caly3, and boy oh boy does that 420j2 scratch up quickly! haha do i care? not one bit! its scratched because i use it at every opportunity!

[JD Spydo]

One of the main reasons I have my sights set on a Fallkniven THOR model bowie knife is because it's blade steel is LAMINATED VG-10. I hope that the Great Spyder Factory is maybe listening to this :)

I have been a believer in laminated blade steels for some time now. I will admit that the very first time I owned a laminated blade was when I got my Burgundy ZDP-189 Caly Jr. I loved the concept then and I love it even more now.

Now there are at least 4 advantages I can see that you can acheive by using laminated blade steel. But tensile strength and utilizing a super steel for a core edge steel is paramount. Corrosion protection is also a primary consideration as well.

I personally think it would be a tremendous advantage for fixed blades in particular.

[Tank]

I don't really see a need to laminate v-1(VG-10?) It's a great steel all on its own so why cover a good thing. As far as performance, I agree with Paul. I have the zdp laminated caly jr and the vg-10 and see no noticable difference in performance.

[JD Spydo]

I don't really see a need to laminate v-1(VG-10?) It's a great steel all on its own so why cover a good thing. As far as performance, I agree with Paul. I have the zdp laminated caly jr and the vg-10 and see no noticable difference in performance.

I think you guys might have a valid point when it comes to folders. Although I still think it would be a good idea in the area of corrosion resistance especially with ZDP-189 which has a lot to be desired when it comes to corrosion resistance.

But I am very adamant about using it in fixed blades because I think the added strength would truly a be a PLUS.

[gaj999]

I don't really see a need to laminate v-1(VG-10?) It's a great steel all on its own so why cover a good thing. As far as performance, I agree with Paul. I have the zdp laminated caly jr and the vg-10 and see no noticable difference in performance.

VG-1 is a different steel than VG-10.

The reason to laminate is that you can run the core steel really hard, way past the point where it would be too brittle on it's own. The cladding provides strength to protect the core.

It works if done well. I have a folder from japan with a VG-10 core that outperforms the VG-10 used by Spyderco in the monolithic form. I'm not down on laminates, just on 'hard-use' folders.

Gordon

[nathan310]

Unless it is a major cost savings for Spyderco, I would not be in favor of laminent VG10/420J2 in the model line up.

Why? VG10 would be better on it's own. The 420J2 would just get all scratched up and serve no purpose that I can think of.

[SoCal Operator]

Honestly, whatever Spyderco thinks is the best solution for the individual knife. I see absolutely no reason to laminate VG-1 with 420J, as the the two steels are already similar enough in general. It looks like marketing to me, and as gaj999 pointed out, any strength gains on a folder would be negligible. The lock/pivot would fail first anyway.

[Firebat]

Few points:

1. That manufacturer has been using "San Mai" in various products for a long, long. long time. "San Mai" itself is not in the least newsworthy.

2. Given point 1., the announcement that they are bringing it to their folders is simply that, an announcement, to create some buzz. Unless you happen to be a real fan of both their folders and San Mai, it's less than noteworthy.

3. As already mentioned a number of times, laminating steel just for the sake of saying it's laminated steel doesn't mean much. It's not all the same. In this particular comparison, what Spyderco has been doing for awhile with laminates is most assuredly superior to what the other company is offering.

4. Use Google to do a search on "San Mai", and while you're at it be sure to check out another amazing steel from that same manufacturer by the name of "Carbon V". :rolleyes: I think you'll find exactly why no one here on the Spyderco forums feels all that impressed with this company's announcements.

[edge-e]

It would only make sense doing this
on steel like zdp.But H1 is so tough
whats the point anyways.Even a well
done laminated blade still will chip at the
edge,so it's really pointless with the types
of steels we have today.

[The Mastiff]

IMO, there is no real reason to laminate a knife if the thing is engineered, and the steel selected and heat treated and ground correctly for the jobs the knife is designed to perform. I am aware of the scandanavian tradition of doing it with plain carbon steels run fairly hard, with softer, more corrosion resistant steels on the outside. Those traditionally, are well made but inexpensive knives. Modern metallurgy has made the need for such laminated blades redundant, IMO.

The Spyderco knives that were laminated were not done to improve performance, or corrosion resistance, nor to strengthen the blade. It was done as ZDP can't be fine blanked ( stamped out) and that particular vendor selected to make that knife had no laser cutter. A thinner ZDP core with 420J2 sandwich was selected for it instead of the full width ZDP blade as found on the harder use Endura and delica models, which were made by a different vendor with different equipment.

So the story goes.

VG1 is a good steel in it's own right.

VG1

Features

Blade is one of the oldest tools that early people used in ancient time, and it has been playing an important role in daily living since then. But when you cut food and you use blade on human's body, for instance, shaving or hair-cutting, rust on the blade is annoying and you can't savor delicious cuisine. This is why stainless steel blade was created meeting users' need, but at first stainless steel blades had bad reputation for being blunt. It is because the early stainless steel was not suitable for cutting blade.
Our V Gold1 is an ideal cutting steel and its material provides the base of our stainless cutting steel series.

From raw material with fewer impurities, the ingot is made by latest refining technology. It has fine and ductile structure and is easy to forge by fire. Heat treatment is also easy to apply to and the product is corrosive resistant.
Blades made of VG1 meet these four major requirements for a good blade;

1. hard
2. ductile
3. abrasion-resistant
4. corrosive-resistant

VG1 contains 1.0% of C and hard primary carbide and secondary carbide co-exist in the substrate, which enhances its abrasion resistance. 14% of Cr also contributes to improvement in corrosive-resistance and strength. Mo together with Cr forms hard double carbide helping improve in abrasion resistance and corrosion resistance.
VG1 is utilized in many fields such as for hairdresser's scissors, kitchen knives, blade for food-processing machineries.
Component Standard
C 0.95-1.05
Cr 13.0-15.0
W ----
Mo 0.2-0.4
V ----
Ni 0.25 or lower
Co ----

Compare it to the other steels made by Takefu, such as VG10, and SG1. http://www.e-tokko.com/eng_original_list.htm

Would I sell it as a premium steel, or a super steel? No, but it's not a bad steel by any means. To be honest, I prefer VG10, or the powder steel SG1& SG2 which are closer to a powder steel version of BG42.

[THG]

I can understand laminating something like ZDP-189 for corrosion resistance and whatnot (a very hard steel + a soft steel; makes sense), maybe, but VG-1? Like I said, why not start laminating 440A while you're at it?

Of course I got trampled on the other forum for explaining just what "San Mai" is to someone who was falling prey to the marketing scheme. :rolleyes:

[Scottie3000]

I agree with most on here that for folders, laminated steel doesn't seem to be a real advantage on a folder size knife. On camp sized fixed blades i think laminated steel seems like a great idea.

[The Deacon]

I agree with most on here that for folders, laminated steel doesn't seem to be a real advantage on a folder size knife. On camp sized fixed blades i think laminated steel seems like a great idea.

I could be wrong, but I'm more inclined to think long thin bladed kitchen knives, where a hard, relatively brittle core could be sandwiched between tougher outer layers, would benefit the most. As for folders, lamination is sometimes used to bury a "super steel" core which offers great edge holding but insipid looks between visually attractive damascus outer layers, as in this example from A.G. Russell.