Tenacious vs. Dragonfly PRICES
Tenacious vs. Dragonfly PRICES
I have loved the tenacious; bought two. Next bought dragonfly, white FRN; what a great disappointment. And the Tenacious is cheaper (MSRP list)!! Seems to me PRICES of Spydercos need a big overhaul.
The Dragonfly has been in production for many years because people think the price worth paying. Apparently the prices do not need an overhaul, despite your opinion.mgebhard wrote:I have loved the tenacious; bought two. Next bought dragonfly, white FRN; what a great disappointment. And the Tenacious is cheaper (MSRP list)!! Seems to me PRICES of Spydercos need a big overhaul.
Our reason is quite satisfied, in 999 cases out of every 1000 of us, if we can find a few arguments that will do to recite in case our credulity is criticized by someone else. Our faith is faith in someone else's faith, and in the greatest matters this is most the case.
- William James, from The Will to Believe, a guest lecture at Yale University in 1897
- William James, from The Will to Believe, a guest lecture at Yale University in 1897
:confused: Oy. Nice second post. :rolleyes:
As for Spyderco's prices needing an overhaul, maybe you're right. The Gayle Bradley folder should list at $350 shouldn't it? CPM-M4, carbon fiber, bomb-proof stout, top shelf fit and finish. If it came from a custom maker's shop anyone certainly would pay that, but no...Spyderco had to go and make it all affordable and all. The nerve.
C'mon.
As for Spyderco's prices needing an overhaul, maybe you're right. The Gayle Bradley folder should list at $350 shouldn't it? CPM-M4, carbon fiber, bomb-proof stout, top shelf fit and finish. If it came from a custom maker's shop anyone certainly would pay that, but no...Spyderco had to go and make it all affordable and all. The nerve.
C'mon.
What you experienced is what a lot of us Tenacious owners go through. At first I thought the same thing about my Native.
The "problem" (and I use that term loosely) isn't Spyderco's pricing. It's the great deal you get on the Tenacious itself. In my opinion it's one of the best values in the retail knife market. You'll have a hard time finding a similar knife with decent steel, G-10 scales, excellent jimping, phosphor bronze bushings, skeletonized stainless liners, and a solid liner lock, all for under $35.
The "problem" (and I use that term loosely) isn't Spyderco's pricing. It's the great deal you get on the Tenacious itself. In my opinion it's one of the best values in the retail knife market. You'll have a hard time finding a similar knife with decent steel, G-10 scales, excellent jimping, phosphor bronze bushings, skeletonized stainless liners, and a solid liner lock, all for under $35.
C142G, C10GPFG, C81G2, C101G2, C122, C123, C11BK, C11PGRE, C41BK, C94PBL, C136G, C129CFP, C129GP, C148G, C75SS3, C28BK2, C28BK, C130G, C138, JGGY, LBK3, C137, C133
I don't necessarily think the Dragonfly is too expensive, but there is no doubt the Tenacious is an amazing knife for the money. Not sure what it is that you don't like about the Dragonfly, but I think that this is a knife with no liners. As I've gotten into knives more, I've found that I prefer beefier, heavier knives with liners, but there are others on this forum who place lightness above all when shopping for a knife. Don't discount the rest of the Spyderco lineup because you don't like the dragonfly, there are many knives for you to choose from! And they are guaranteed to suck you in.
the dragonfly has a much higher quality steel, and is produced by one of japan's finest knife making factories. the FRN used is great stuff.
the tenacious is also an incredible deal -- although the steel isn't as good, and it is manufactured in china. i dig the G10, but don't necessarily find it any better than FRN.
any or all of the factors mentioned above may not make sense to some folks... or may not matter. to me, the upgrade in steel alone is worth the increase in price per square inch.
you have to keep in mind that to some people, there's no difference in US-raised organic garlic and the imported stuff grown -- literally -- in human poo. personally, i choose the organic.
(not that either knife is poo-ground, or anything... not by a long shot!)
the tenacious is also an incredible deal -- although the steel isn't as good, and it is manufactured in china. i dig the G10, but don't necessarily find it any better than FRN.
any or all of the factors mentioned above may not make sense to some folks... or may not matter. to me, the upgrade in steel alone is worth the increase in price per square inch.
you have to keep in mind that to some people, there's no difference in US-raised organic garlic and the imported stuff grown -- literally -- in human poo. personally, i choose the organic.
(not that either knife is poo-ground, or anything... not by a long shot!)
:spyder: :spyder: :spyder:
The price of the Dragonfly was the subject of some discussion in this thread, the review of which may or may not be informative: http://spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40390
Somewhere out there is a good explanation from Sal about how Spydercos are priced. I thought it was in a discussion on the price of either the Bushcraft or the UKPK (started by the beloved nitromors), but I can't find it.
I believe the gist was that there's no magic or voodoo involved: add up the cost of the materials, manufacturing, transport etc., throw in a little profit margin, done.
This thread reminds me though - I've been meaning to get a Dragonfly.
Somewhere out there is a good explanation from Sal about how Spydercos are priced. I thought it was in a discussion on the price of either the Bushcraft or the UKPK (started by the beloved nitromors), but I can't find it.
I believe the gist was that there's no magic or voodoo involved: add up the cost of the materials, manufacturing, transport etc., throw in a little profit margin, done.
This thread reminds me though - I've been meaning to get a Dragonfly.
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The Deacon
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Well, if that's the way it seems to you, then that's the way it seems to you.mgebhard wrote:I have loved the tenacious; bought two. Next bought dragonfly, white FRN; what a great disappointment. And the Tenacious is cheaper (MSRP list)!! Seems to me PRICES of Spydercos need a big overhaul.
On the other hand, most of us who frequent this forum understand, at least to some degree, that steel quality and country of manufacture are what make the Dragonfly more expensive. If you're satisfied with the Tenacious and want something smaller, I'd suggest looking at the Persistence. It uses the same steel as the Tenacious and is also made in China, so prices are comparable.
Paul
My Personal Website ---- Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting ---- Spydiewiki
Deplorable :p
WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!
My Personal Website ---- Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting ---- Spydiewiki
Deplorable :p
WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!
As you seem to be new here, I want to welcome you to the forum. I can understand where you are coming from and why you feel that way. The more time you spend here, you will begin to notice that discussions about price many times lead to country of origin. Discussions about country of origin lead to flag waving, political views, and opinionated conjecture. That's what makes this place unique. Everyone has their own opinion and point of view. But at the end of the day we all share a common interest - Spyderco knives.
As I previously mentioned, I can understand your concern about why a FRN Dragonfly costs more than a Tenacious - "Why the heck does this Dragonfly, which is much smaller and feels like it's made of cheap plastic cost more than this Tenacious, which is larger, heftier, has a longer blade and dual steel liners?" I used to think along those lines as well and the more I learned from the more experienced people on this forum, the more I realized I was wrong. I hope you stick around and are not put off by your experience with the Dragonfly.
As I previously mentioned, I can understand your concern about why a FRN Dragonfly costs more than a Tenacious - "Why the heck does this Dragonfly, which is much smaller and feels like it's made of cheap plastic cost more than this Tenacious, which is larger, heftier, has a longer blade and dual steel liners?" I used to think along those lines as well and the more I learned from the more experienced people on this forum, the more I realized I was wrong. I hope you stick around and are not put off by your experience with the Dragonfly.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] <--- My Spydies <click the dancing banana!>
China and Japan are very different in pricing. Most knives will disappoint in comparison if price is a factor hence why it has a roundhole.
The Dragonfly is vg10. It's a great small knife and arguably one of the better small cutters out of Spydercos collection(has a great tip).
It may feel cheap but it also weighs a quarter of the the tenacious and only gives up about an inch in blade. Different philosophy of knife.
Knives like the Tenacious are greatbut shouldn't change the standard. Nothing can keep up for $25 :p .
The Dragonfly is vg10. It's a great small knife and arguably one of the better small cutters out of Spydercos collection(has a great tip).
It may feel cheap but it also weighs a quarter of the the tenacious and only gives up about an inch in blade. Different philosophy of knife.
Knives like the Tenacious are greatbut shouldn't change the standard. Nothing can keep up for $25 :p .
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CombatGrappler
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I just want to drop some life advice on you, since you are a fellow Spyderco enthusiast.mgebhard wrote:I have loved the tenacious; bought two. Next bought dragonfly, white FRN; what a great disappointment. And the Tenacious is cheaper (MSRP list)!! Seems to me PRICES of Spydercos need a big overhaul.
Anytime you take up a new hobby, you should take some time to learn as much as you can about it, BEFORE you start telling the old timers what is what and how things should be. We are a family here, and you will not find a friendlier, more understanding, or more tolerant group of people anywhere. If you were to go to certain other forums and speak before you knew the full situation, you would find it very unpleasant.
Spyderco goes out of its way to give us the knives we want, sometimes even producing knives that they KNOW they are going to lose money on.
The Dragonfly is one of the more popular models and is priced to make it affordable and profitable. If there were a way to sell it more cheaply, it would have been done already.
Also, you didn't mention where you bought your Dragonfly. It is possible that, being new to this hobby, you unwittingly paid too much for it.
Tidbits of Sal:
"Why does the tang stamp make a knife more expensive or cheaper?"
http://spyderco.com/forums/showpost.php ... stcount=49
"Why is my knife so expensive? How does Spyderco price the knives?"
http://spyderco.com/forums/showpost.php ... stcount=29
PS: I'm gonna make a thread to tag to my signature. It wont be a sticky but should be a decent source of official info.
"Why does the tang stamp make a knife more expensive or cheaper?"
http://spyderco.com/forums/showpost.php ... stcount=49
"Why is my knife so expensive? How does Spyderco price the knives?"
http://spyderco.com/forums/showpost.php ... stcount=29
PS: I'm gonna make a thread to tag to my signature. It wont be a sticky but should be a decent source of official info.
Hi Mgbehard,
Welcome to the Spyderco forum.
The cost of products in general and Knives in particular can be very confusing. Especially now with great disparity in costs due to country of manufacture.
It's easy to see why most knife manufacturers had moved much of their production to China. It's very difficult to compete costwise.
As Jay_Ev wisely mentioned, it's also a controversial subject. I would like to avoid the political view in this thread if possible.
Knifemaking skill varies greatly through out the world. Also the ability for knife perople to "see" the differences in quality also varies. As one gets more involved in knives, one learns more about them. The world of knives is a very deep complex world if one chooses to explore. As one learns more about them, different areas become more important. There are visitors to this forum that actually pay attention to how much carbon is in the blade steel.
$1.00 in the US:
Costs $1.35 to make something in Europe as the Euro is valued higher. Add shipping, duties, tooling costs, etc. which increases the cost.
Costs $1.20 to make something in Japan.
Costs about $.75 to make something in Taiwan.
Costs about $.30 to make something in Chnina.
There are in fact quality differences as well as material cost differences that make the cost equation more complicated.
The US, Europe and Japan produce very high quality blade steels.
We ship US steel to Taiwan.
China produces it's own steel, but as yet, it's not exotic chemistry, though they produce some good steels and they are improving.
Our margins are relatively fixed. Because we might be able to "get more" for a product does not mean that we do. We feel that "to to charge as much as the market will bear" is not best.....for us.
The Tenacious could probably command a higher price. The Dragonfly is probably a better deal based on our costs. The maker that makes the Dragonfly has already proven over time that his quality is very good and the knife will perform for a very long time. The maker that makes the Tenacious is very good, but we've not had the time element yet to tell long term quality.
Hope that helps.
sal
Welcome to the Spyderco forum.
The cost of products in general and Knives in particular can be very confusing. Especially now with great disparity in costs due to country of manufacture.
It's easy to see why most knife manufacturers had moved much of their production to China. It's very difficult to compete costwise.
As Jay_Ev wisely mentioned, it's also a controversial subject. I would like to avoid the political view in this thread if possible.
Knifemaking skill varies greatly through out the world. Also the ability for knife perople to "see" the differences in quality also varies. As one gets more involved in knives, one learns more about them. The world of knives is a very deep complex world if one chooses to explore. As one learns more about them, different areas become more important. There are visitors to this forum that actually pay attention to how much carbon is in the blade steel.
$1.00 in the US:
Costs $1.35 to make something in Europe as the Euro is valued higher. Add shipping, duties, tooling costs, etc. which increases the cost.
Costs $1.20 to make something in Japan.
Costs about $.75 to make something in Taiwan.
Costs about $.30 to make something in Chnina.
There are in fact quality differences as well as material cost differences that make the cost equation more complicated.
The US, Europe and Japan produce very high quality blade steels.
We ship US steel to Taiwan.
China produces it's own steel, but as yet, it's not exotic chemistry, though they produce some good steels and they are improving.
Our margins are relatively fixed. Because we might be able to "get more" for a product does not mean that we do. We feel that "to to charge as much as the market will bear" is not best.....for us.
The Tenacious could probably command a higher price. The Dragonfly is probably a better deal based on our costs. The maker that makes the Dragonfly has already proven over time that his quality is very good and the knife will perform for a very long time. The maker that makes the Tenacious is very good, but we've not had the time element yet to tell long term quality.
Hope that helps.
sal
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SmoothOne25
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not to derail but "bomb proof"? wtf? :confused: you serious?Firebat wrote: :confused: Oy. Nice second post. :rolleyes:
As for Spyderco's prices needing an overhaul, maybe you're right. The Gayle Bradley folder should list at $350 shouldn't it? CPM-M4, carbon fiber, bomb-proof stout, top shelf fit and finish. If it came from a custom maker's shop anyone certainly would pay that, but no...Spyderco had to go and make it all affordable and all. The nerve.
C'mon.
--an eye for an eye--
"You can't escape yourself."
"You can't escape yourself."
True words. I used to think my S&W knives were fine, and I even said, "Wow, I would never pay $60 for a knife." Just look at me nowsal wrote:As one gets more involved in knives, one learns more about them. The world of knives is a very deep complex world if one chooses to explore. As one learns more about them, different areas become more important. There are visitors to this forum that actually pay attention to how much carbon is in the blade steel.
Im not good at sharpening, even with a sharpmaker. How get your blade good can your blade with an edge pro system? - Bladeforums user
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? - Some Online Meme
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? - Some Online Meme