Navy SEALs Charged

[Sequimite]

Happy Thanksgiving, all, and God bless our troops.

Now there's a nice point of agreement to end on. God bless all of our military personnel and especially their children, spouses and parents that anxiously await their safe return.

[The Mastiff]

Yes, Joe

You were chucking your weight about

Never mind, eh?

Noddy, you're right, and I'll wear it. I won't make any excuses for my behavior as I'm grown up and know better. I will attempt to do better in the future. That's about all I can promise.

I do believe that a man should say what he means, and mean what he says. That's ok, and there's nothing wrong with it. What's wrong is if it crosses over into rudeness or antagonism.

What's even more wrong is not showing respect to the owners of this forum, and causing problems for them. There's no excuse and if it becomes a situation where I believe, or they tell me I'm causing them problems I'll take it elsewhere not out of any kind of childishness on my part, but a desire to not cause problems to people that have earned my respect and then some.

Regards, Joe/Raleigh NC

[The Mastiff]

I appreciate your take on this. I did not know that the Iraqis started the process and you are right that this automatically creates a strong political aspect. Soldiers have too often been sacrificed in the past for political expediency, the great movie, Breaker Morant dealt with this subject.

I had a long discussion the other day with my favorite brother-in-law, a chief of detectives, about the subject of police discretion. He received good advice early on: never kick someone's *** because you're angry or because it's emotionally satisfying, only do it if it is necessary to make a particular important point. We agreed that, just like judicial discretion, police discretion has been diminished not because it is not effective, but because only the abuses become well known. I frightening number of laws are based on a few anecdotes, rather than a cool rational policy assessment. This is a failure of the political system, but it is also our failure as citizens. Most of us don't look beyond the bumper sticker to the complexities of the underlying issues and so we have a political system that overreacts to isolated publicized incidents

I believe you are down to earth, and show common sense, and have a strong sense of morality. Those are things I respect.

The military still deals with concepts considered stupid, or a hinderance to progression in the job market by some. I'm talking about self discipline, loyalty, honor, duty, and service to others for a greater cause.

Some of the politicians we have live in different worlds, and really don't have any concept of this, or why a person would throw himself on a grenade for his fellows.

I would be more comfortable if all commanders in chief have time in the military, hopefully in leadership positions. If they themselves don't have the right stuff, it's a matter of time before they rub elbows or are exposed to a role model that understands what it is to be a true leader, not just a cut throat politician who is slicker than the rest.

Not all ex service members could make good presidents, but not many non ex service members will make a good commander in chief. There are always exceptions.

I'm very wary of folks that don't appreciate, and have a loyalty to those that serve them, and put their lives on the line under their command. It is something that frightens me when I see it in a person, as it is an insight into their personal morals and character.

I do want to keep my second guessing of others to a minimum as I know for a fact I don't have it in me to be a good president. I just don't. :)

[noddy]

I'll wear it.

Well, you have secured my respect with that post, Joe. No doubt. A lesson in civil conduct to anyone reading it.

[papaac]

This is so much crap because as others have said, the other side doesn't follow the Geneva Convention or any other means of humanitarian behavior.


Glenn Beck had Marcus Lutrell on his show this morning. Marcus said that often the prisoners would slam their heads against the vehicle and then claim that they had been beaten.

[brandonreed2008]

I saw this on the news. What the **** is this country coming to

[spydo]

Horrible if you ask me. But I admire them even more. How they find motivation to fight after this must be really hard. Talk about lack of gratitude. Just terrible.

[SimpleIsGood229]

Okay, since the discussion has been all tied up and finished, I just want to say that y'all finished it very civilly. Very well done. I'm honestly impressed that a thread like this was cooled off with self-moderation. :)

Geeze...I've been away from here for far too long!

[clovisc]

I'm also glad to see this thread ended in a civil fashion.

War is an ugly, horrible, complicated thing. And being a soldier is a hard, hard job. Politics sometimes don't make that job any easier, even though we wish there was a way they could. International politics are an extremely complex game that most people don't have much insight into... but I believe that, like the military, they're an important part of keeping people safe.

I think most veterans will speak to the fact that there aren't always clear "answers" as to what happens in war, and why... and that "right" and "wrong" are much more complicated concepts than we'd like them to be. The things soldiers do in wartime don't always make "sense." Nor do politics. What's important is that all of us recognize the values we share and hold in high esteem, and stand together behind our common beliefs... even when events seem senseless. And even when people make mistakes.

[java]

JMD, Mastiff, et al

Thanks for speaking so convincingly.

I agree that this sends a wrong message to the troops who are following orders and it could have been handled differently. I find the commanders’ behavior up the chain reprehensible and believe once the SEALs refused Article 15, alternate methods like a Letter of Reprimand (LOR) – desk drawer or formalized - or verbal reprimand would have accomplished the desired disciplinary effect IF they still chose to go forward. Commanders have a degree of latitude dealing with complaints of a minor nature, Article 15 being one of them. The affront to the esteemed frickin’ terrorist was obviously deemed minor as the SEALs were offered Non-judicial punishment (UCMJ Article-15). It needed to stay there. A desk drawer LOR, verbal reprimand, or verbal warning (my choice) could have been used to record the event and used formally only if the “undisciplined behavior” continued. None of these would mar the SEALs’ record and the commander – if he felt that strongly - would have both “disciplined” the SEALs and covered his butt. As there is an escalating continuum of force there is a corresponding continuum of discipline.

The first commander in the chain chose wrong or did not have the leadership skills to effectively convey the need for a lesser and appropriate form of discipline and IMO is entirely responsible for this escalation; the ensuing (negative IMO) publicity; and its impact on the lives and attitudes of these young SEALs. The commander’s decision now also impacts the decision of any number of patriotic young men and women wanting join the military anyone who see how their leadership can fail to protect them.

I’ve been in a slightly similar situation and in view of the evidence, my immediate commander at least had the sense to realize that although he still had to maintain order, to proceed with a CM would have had a negative impact on myself and the others under his command. A desk drawer LOR was retained for 6-month by my commander and he and the JAG were satisfied while I was none the worse for the wear. I maintain the CO was wrong to this day but in the interest of unity and discipline I understand what had to be done and harbor no ill feelings.

Any of us desire another Timothy McVeigh? Proceed full ahead speed with this CM. It’s one way to grow the resentment and anger he had.......

On that fine note. Peace on Earth. Goodwill towards all mankind.




j

[psychophipps]

He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
— Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good And Evil

"Enemies, as well as lovers, come to resemble each other over a period of time."
— Sydney J. Harris

Keep these in mind when you think that, "Well, they act like animals and kill innocents, why shouldn't we just pull the gloves off ourselves?"

Iraq and Afghanistan are both counter-insurgency operations and you win those by winning the hearts and minds of the population, not with body counts. Russia failed at doing this, as did the US in Vietnam with various unfortunate policy choices. Anyone who thinks that simply rolling in and blowing away every single Taliban currently holding a rifle will solve this thing is grossly misinformed and fails to grasp the true war that our soldiers are fighting.

[Monocrom]

This sort of thing is exactly why the war will drag out with no end in sight. While one side is pulling out a Rule Book, for dealing with prisoners. The other side is pulling out a sharpener ... before dealing with prisoners. :mad: