Spyderco Mule ZDP-189: problem
After I get my ZDP 189 Mule back from Tom Krein I'll get it Rockwell tested and report how hard it is. I only had it a hour or so before shipping it off, but the angle was thin and the knife was easily tree topping hairs; I bet it was hair whittling sharp. I think it will make an excellent slicer, and I'm guessing it is real hard from these reports of cracking. It will be interesting if it is a point or two harder than the Stretch 2 (mine tested out at 64.5 RC) to see what the differences in performance and sharpening are.
Mike
Mike
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The Mastiff
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I wouldn't mind if mine was RC67. In fact, I'd feel lucky.
Notice the way internet rumors work. Now we have people questioning and stating they will not buy Stretch 2 FRN's, which have not had any trouble reported AFAIK. :)
Notice the way internet rumors work. Now we have people questioning and stating they will not buy Stretch 2 FRN's, which have not had any trouble reported AFAIK. :)
"A Mastiff is to a dog what a Lion is to a housecat. He stands alone and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race" Cynographia Britannic 1800
"Unless you're the lead dog the view is pretty much gonna stay the same!"
"Unless you're the lead dog the view is pretty much gonna stay the same!"
I would not worry about the stretch and any ZDP folder. I think people don't twist or bend a folder like they would try on a fixed blade simply because of the pivot. I don't have a ZDP Mule myself, but the Mule I do have is much thinner than any ZDP folders I have. The Mule just may be a little to thin to do any twisting action with a high RC steel.
...oh you know why!
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The Deacon
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I have a confession to make, I hope Sal will not mind, but it may help put the worries about the ZDP Stretch and Spyderco's solid ZDP bladed folders in general to rest, or at least in perspective. Here it goes. Although the FRN Stretch II Sal gave me for "extended testing" is marked VG-10, the actual steel is ZDP-189. It was one of the prototypes displayed at shows earlier this year. At the time those were made, no VG-10 Stretch II blades existed, but ZDP-189 ones, intended for the CF version, did. Spyderco wanted to show both FRN handles without causing confusion as to which color went with which steel.
Anyway, I've been using that knife quite heavily ever since I finished testing the Manix II Pilot in April. Among other things, I used it to cut my way through a mix of vines and branches blocking a trail I was hiking. I can assure you that, at least after the first minute or two, I was paying very little attention to "finesse" - all I wanted to do was to get the job done. Lots of twisting, lots of cutting with considerable side pressure. Bottom line - the blade held up fine, Much better than my arm, which was sore for a couple days.
In a more general sense, Spyderco has been selling folders with solid ZDP-189 blades for several years now. The ZDP Delica, while smaller than the Stretch, is also thinner. The Endura is longer. There may, in that time, have been a single report of a blade breaking, but certainly not anywhere near enough such reports to consider such breakage to be a cause for concern. While everyone is free to spend their money as they choose, and avoid a given material for any reason, rational or not, fear of breakage in normal everyday use is not a rational reason to deny oneself the experience of owning and using any of Spyderco's solid ZDP bladed folders.
Anyway, I've been using that knife quite heavily ever since I finished testing the Manix II Pilot in April. Among other things, I used it to cut my way through a mix of vines and branches blocking a trail I was hiking. I can assure you that, at least after the first minute or two, I was paying very little attention to "finesse" - all I wanted to do was to get the job done. Lots of twisting, lots of cutting with considerable side pressure. Bottom line - the blade held up fine, Much better than my arm, which was sore for a couple days.
In a more general sense, Spyderco has been selling folders with solid ZDP-189 blades for several years now. The ZDP Delica, while smaller than the Stretch, is also thinner. The Endura is longer. There may, in that time, have been a single report of a blade breaking, but certainly not anywhere near enough such reports to consider such breakage to be a cause for concern. While everyone is free to spend their money as they choose, and avoid a given material for any reason, rational or not, fear of breakage in normal everyday use is not a rational reason to deny oneself the experience of owning and using any of Spyderco's solid ZDP bladed folders.
Paul
My Personal Website ---- Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting ---- Spydiewiki
Deplorable :p
WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!
My Personal Website ---- Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting ---- Spydiewiki
Deplorable :p
WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!
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yuraelektra
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yuraelektra
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At the request of my Spydie-comrades spread the fruit of collective wisdom. :)
Dear Mr. Glesser and all Spyderco collectors!
We just want to explain some moments about ZDP Mule Team, please try to understand us:
we haven’t cut ANYTHING with broken Mules! We haven’t use them as an axe. WE HAVEN’T USED THEM AT ALL. We are big fans of Spyderco and we want to be honest with you. Those two knives were fragile as glass. And its lucky for us that we haven’t tried to use them because we think its rather dangerous to use such fragile knives. We’ve read about your experiments with ZDP heat treating. Its very useful in knife making no doubt. But we suppose our broken blades have too much hardness for ZDP. Anyway Spyderco says that: «each run will have the same thickness, grind, edge, and WILL BE HEAT TRЕАTED TO THE OPTIMAL HARDNESS FOR THAT STEEL». We think our Mules have wrong heat treatment, its not optimal for ZDP if someone can easily break it as a piece of glass. We have used ZDP for quite a long time in Russia so we know all its features, we know its not for hard use. Please don’t think of us inexperienced. Our Spyderco forum includes thousands of fans, many of them are professional metallurgists and custom knife makers. Its very easy to check our Mules, Mr. Glesser, just let us send them to Spyderco. And if the knives have wrong heat treatment could you tell please is it possible to change our broken knives? And what about other Mules that we’ve bought which haven’t broken yet but have the same defects, is it possible to change them either?
THANK YOU!
SINCERELY, RUSSIAN SPYDERCO FANS!
Dear Mr. Glesser and all Spyderco collectors!
We just want to explain some moments about ZDP Mule Team, please try to understand us:
we haven’t cut ANYTHING with broken Mules! We haven’t use them as an axe. WE HAVEN’T USED THEM AT ALL. We are big fans of Spyderco and we want to be honest with you. Those two knives were fragile as glass. And its lucky for us that we haven’t tried to use them because we think its rather dangerous to use such fragile knives. We’ve read about your experiments with ZDP heat treating. Its very useful in knife making no doubt. But we suppose our broken blades have too much hardness for ZDP. Anyway Spyderco says that: «each run will have the same thickness, grind, edge, and WILL BE HEAT TRЕАTED TO THE OPTIMAL HARDNESS FOR THAT STEEL». We think our Mules have wrong heat treatment, its not optimal for ZDP if someone can easily break it as a piece of glass. We have used ZDP for quite a long time in Russia so we know all its features, we know its not for hard use. Please don’t think of us inexperienced. Our Spyderco forum includes thousands of fans, many of them are professional metallurgists and custom knife makers. Its very easy to check our Mules, Mr. Glesser, just let us send them to Spyderco. And if the knives have wrong heat treatment could you tell please is it possible to change our broken knives? And what about other Mules that we’ve bought which haven’t broken yet but have the same defects, is it possible to change them either?
THANK YOU!
SINCERELY, RUSSIAN SPYDERCO FANS!
Gunmike inspired me to take my Mule to work and hardness test it. My 6 readings ranged from 65.2 to 67.1 HRC. It's definitely the hardest steel I've ever tested.
I'll be interested to see the readings from others.
This definitely takes it out of the EDC category, but should work real nice on my workbench.
I'll be interested to see the readings from others.
This definitely takes it out of the EDC category, but should work real nice on my workbench.
42 Spyderco fixed blades and counting...
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photonjunkie
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I love the how Spyderco is constantly trying new things and testing established conventions. However, I do view my knives as users and while I would never intentionally throw, chop or pry with one of my Spydies they might fall or get dropped during use (though this hasn't happened to one of my other Mules yet). For some, this may be a worthwhile trade off for the attained hardness but if the stories are true it may be a little too brittle for me. I intend to pick one up anyway so hopefully these incidents with the ZDP-189 mules are isolated.
You are free to look at it that way certainly. I choose to think of it more as information from knowledgeable souls.The Mastiff wrote:
Notice the way internet rumors work.
I don't suddently think ZDP is an awful steel , or that Spyderco have lost the plot in its HT. Rather this: for me the Stretch is very much a user knife. It is what I use camping, walking, travelling etc. It is (along with the Lobster, my kitchen knife on the go.
I have several knives in ZDP - I love how sharp they can get, but I also know they chip and possibly are better off laminated. I want a backup Stretch for its shape and design - I'll get it in VG10. Chips I can live with. But not cracks.
Having said that one of my favourite kitchen knives is a foot long bit of Japanese ZDP :D :D
It's just caution. I like VG10 a lot - and probably more than ZDP, anyway
My ZDP Stretch tested at 64.5 and is a GREAT EDC knife, I see no reason to not use a ZDP Mule at 65-67 RC for EDC tasks. The Stretch easily cuts through anything that you would normally throw at a knife, I see no reason why a fixed blade a point or two higher in hardness is a safety risk. It should perform better is anything, as long as chopping and prying aren't done. The blade is a slicer, used as such I'd be extremely happy to have mine test out at 67 RC, because that will mean better edge retention and probably easier sharpening due to lack of burring (though the Stretch sharpens up with little to no burring) than I am used to with ZDP 189. Don't chop with it, but it should have great edge retention and I think the few knives that broke are definately the exception, not the rule.
Mike
Mike
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yuraelektra
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Mike, I completely agree.
What makes it not an EDC is the times when I lend it out. I normally will only hand a knife to someone I trust with it, but I'd rather the work get done than not. As such, the ZDP Mule will serve ME very well (at home), it just won't get carried or lent out.
Besides, I have the other Mules to keep me company on an EDC rotation. I was really enjoying the 52100 until it got a little rusty on me. I'll be blueing the blade and will continue to carry it on a nearly daily basis. I'll be making a sheath for the S90V for the "wet days".
What makes it not an EDC is the times when I lend it out. I normally will only hand a knife to someone I trust with it, but I'd rather the work get done than not. As such, the ZDP Mule will serve ME very well (at home), it just won't get carried or lent out.
Besides, I have the other Mules to keep me company on an EDC rotation. I was really enjoying the 52100 until it got a little rusty on me. I'll be blueing the blade and will continue to carry it on a nearly daily basis. I'll be making a sheath for the S90V for the "wet days".
42 Spyderco fixed blades and counting...
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The Mastiff
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The few mules we've heard of so far that have broken have been dropped, or put in a vice and bent. This does not point to defective knives but operator error. When it "shatters like glass" slicing something, I might change my mind.
The next thing will be complaints of it chipping while sharpening. Personally I know how to sharpen high hardness steels without chipping them. Others don't, and will undoubtedly blame the steel and heat treat.
No wonder knife manufacturers don't do the high performance stuff except in rare instances. Steels acting just as they should ( including breaking when dropped or bent) get people complaining about improper heat treats, or too high hardness.
Guys, if you don't know what to expect with a steel, learn before you buy it. That's why they make very nice knives in VG10 at RC 59, or Aus6, 154cm, etc
The next thing will be complaints of it chipping while sharpening. Personally I know how to sharpen high hardness steels without chipping them. Others don't, and will undoubtedly blame the steel and heat treat.
No wonder knife manufacturers don't do the high performance stuff except in rare instances. Steels acting just as they should ( including breaking when dropped or bent) get people complaining about improper heat treats, or too high hardness.
Guys, if you don't know what to expect with a steel, learn before you buy it. That's why they make very nice knives in VG10 at RC 59, or Aus6, 154cm, etc
"A Mastiff is to a dog what a Lion is to a housecat. He stands alone and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race" Cynographia Britannic 1800
"Unless you're the lead dog the view is pretty much gonna stay the same!"
"Unless you're the lead dog the view is pretty much gonna stay the same!"
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yuraelektra
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Sir,The Mastiff wrote:Guys, if you don't know what to expect with a steel, learn before you buy it. That's why they make very nice knives in VG10 at RC 59, or Aus6, 154cm, etc
Sorry, but you must have read my post attentively
:D :) . We have different knives from ZDP-189 (Spyderco and other manufacturers). I personally have Chinese Folder, En and Stretch CF, none of them can not break his hands. Great steel! The problem appeared only in Mule.
best regards
The Mastiff wrote:The few mules we've heard of so far that have broken have been dropped, or put in a vice and bent. This does not point to defective knives but operator error. When it "shatters like glass" slicing something, I might change my mind.
alexvzin wrote:All knives was broken by hands, without vice.
It looks to me as if there was no vice involved in this situation.
If what our Russian friends are saying is true, then it appears that their Mules broke from hand pressure alone. It also appears that other ZDP Mules have withstood drops, vices, and having handles put on. Maybe there is something wrong with their Mules...as they've been saying.