The Joy of Micro-Serrations

[MountainManJim]

So, my wife presented me with a cutting challenge. She was making a garment and needed to have the polyester batting sticking out of the seams cut off. Scissors were not cutting the batting as close to the seams as she needed, hence she turned to me for a knife solution.

This polyester fluff is not as easy as you might think to cut. For one it pulls apart and we didn’t want to pull it out of the seams. I tried a number of knives with various blade grinds, sharpening angles and steel types. None of them were very satisfying. Even my very low sharpening angle, extra fine stone sharpened blades had issues with the edge simply sliding across the material without really cutting it.

Then I decided to try micro-serrations. I took my already sharp S30V UKPK and made a few pass on the brown stones only. Success!! The roughened edge had just enough teeth to cut into the minute strands of polyester without just sliding across them. Note: a fully SE Rescue knife only made a mess of the batting by mostly pulling it.

The micro-serration technique appears to very useful for some materials. So, now I have questions for those who sharpen with micro-serrations.

Who micro-serrates their knives?

Which stones do you use to make the micro-serrations?

Do you always sharpen only on the rougher stones or only when you plan cut certain materials?

I am tempted to keep one or two blades in this rough sharpened form, does anyone else do this? I still like having a smooth polished edge for fine cutting.

What kinds of materials or type of cutting does the micro-serrated knife work best for?

I was under the impression that the use of the two or three grits of the sharpening stones was to eliminate the burr on the edge. Does this mean by edge that is only sharpened using the medium stones has a significant burr or can the burr be eliminated by very light sharpening forces? The edge does seem to very sharp.

Anyone like and use micro-serrated SE blades? What’s that like?

Jim

[JBE]

That's the way I've always sharpened my 440V Millie - on the medium stones only. I never had good results putting a polished edge on 440V. Theory has it that the larger carbides in 440V lend themselves well to a coarser-finished, micro-serrated edge. Joe Talmadge has even commented on the usefulness of micro-serrations in his Sharpening FAQ and I have to agree with what he says about them as well. There's also a train of thought that a PE blade sharpened on a coarse stone and left with a somewhat rougher, unpolished edge will actually outperform a SE knife and I agree with this also but only to a certain extent.

[SimpleIsGood229]

Who micro-serrates their knives?

I do. I've been reprofiling my Endura Wave CE with a black DMT stone (X-Coarse). I believe the last stone to touch it was a Coarse DMT. I decided to carry it, even knowing that the edge doesn't have the mirror finish I prefer. As it turned out, this edge actually cuts very well. I may just have to leave it like that.

Since I can't seem to put a really fine edge on S30V (even though I can with ZDP :confused :) , I may sharpen my Manix this way.

Which stones do you use to make the micro-serrations?

See above.

Do you always sharpen only on the rougher stones or only when you plan cut certain materials?

I generally finish the blade off with a Lansky Ultra Fine ceramic.

I am tempted to keep one or two blades in this rough sharpened form, does anyone else do this?

I just might start.

I still like having a smooth polished edge for fine cutting.

Absolutely. My Street Beat and Salts, in particular, stay this way

What kinds of materials or type of cutting does the micro-serrated knife work best for?

I'd imagine fiberous materials.

I was under the impression that the use of the two or three grits of the sharpening stones was to eliminate the burr on the edge. Does this mean by edge that is only sharpened using the medium stones has a significant burr or can the burr be eliminated by very light sharpening forces? The edge does seem to very sharp.

Progressively finer stones are used to smooth and polish the edge (in my experience). If I were leaving an edge with micro-serrations, I would remove any burr with whatever stone I was using (3 swipes on each side, then 2, then 1). I suppose one could apply a few swipes with a fine stone to ensure the absence of a burr.

[D-Roc]

So, my wife presented me with a cutting challenge. She was making a garment and needed to have the polyester batting sticking out of the seams cut off. Scissors were not cutting the batting as close to the seams as she needed, hence she turned to me for a knife solution.

This polyester fluff is not as easy as you might think to cut. For one it pulls apart and we didn’t want to pull it out of the seams. I tried a number of knives with various blade grinds, sharpening angles and steel types. None of them were very satisfying. Even my very low sharpening angle, extra fine stone sharpened blades had issues with the edge simply sliding across the material without really cutting it.

Then I decided to try micro-serrations. I took my already sharp S30V UKPK and made a few pass on the brown stones only. Success!! The roughened edge had just enough teeth to cut into the minute strands of polyester without just sliding across them. Note: a fully SE Rescue knife only made a mess of the batting by mostly pulling it.

The micro-serration technique appears to very useful for some materials. So, now I have questions for those who sharpen with micro-serrations.

Who micro-serrates their knives?

Which stones do you use to make the micro-serrations?

Do you always sharpen only on the rougher stones or only when you plan cut certain materials?

I am tempted to keep one or two blades in this rough sharpened form, does anyone else do this? I still like having a smooth polished edge for fine cutting.

What kinds of materials or type of cutting does the micro-serrated knife work best for?

I was under the impression that the use of the two or three grits of the sharpening stones was to eliminate the burr on the edge. Does this mean by edge that is only sharpened using the medium stones has a significant burr or can the burr be eliminated by very light sharpening forces? The edge does seem to very sharp.

Anyone like and use micro-serrated SE blades? What’s that like?

Jim

I usually use the brown stones to sharpen my SE baldes...makes them cut like mad....... :D

[vampyrewolf]

I've been getting my knives scary sharp and finishing on the medium stones for a LONG time.
The trick is to get each stage as polished as you can before moving up a grit, and only going about 5 degrees higher for the microbevel at the end. You'll feel the point when a stone no longer bites.

I've got just shy of 20yrs of freehand experience and I still learn things, but the biggest one I learned was patience. Though it may take an hour to get a really polished edge, it's worth it.

Some steels shine with the microbevel, others do better with just the polished edge, others go forever with a courser edge. I can tell you that VG-10 and ats-55 go forever if you polish the **** out of em first (and I mean polish). Whereas 440V (S60V) does great with just the medium stones, though S30V goes through just about anything with a microbevel.

My usual system is to sharpen with AO stones till they no longer bite (200-800 grit), polish with the medium stones, polish with the fine stones, strop with 2.0 micron and then 0.5 micron, then add a microbevel. Going through it like sword polishing allows for the most control and the almost complete lack of a burr to clean off (5x loupe), though you have to plan for at least 20-30min for 3" blade.

If you want to see SE shine, get a leather bootlace and load it with veritas green. Loop the one end around a couple toes and pull back on each seperate serration one at a time with tension on the lace.

[The Deacon]

Almost all my "user" blades are either VG-10 or ZDP-189. I generally just sharpen using DMT coarse and fine diamond stones. Reasonably quick and easy to do that way, edges last a decent length of time, and they cut what I need to cut quite well. I'd say the DMT fine is about the equivalent of a medium ceramic stone. I can't recall ever using just the coarse, but I sometimes use only the fine, mostly if I'm just touching up VG-10. I also have an DMT extra fine and an extra fine ceramic stone, but rarely use either.

I've tried polished edges and, for me at least, they neither cut any better or last significantly longer and, as you found out, can occasionally be counterproductive.

[Don Ellis]

The micro-serrations -- tiny saws, as I think of them -- work even better than polished blades for many things... tomatoes immediately come to mind.

If I may suggest a fabric solution for the future -- which has the advantage of not having to lend your knife or resharpen it and do the work yourself -- I've been using an Olfa Rotary Cutter with a tungsten blade for years for fabric and paper. You'll also need a cutting pad... and a straightedge if you're doing straight work; otherwise, freehand it.

Rotary cutters have a no-slip advantage and the ability to follow any shape or pattern. You can find them in most hobby or fabric shops... or online:

http://www.olfa.com/RotaryCuttersList.aspx?C=1

Cheers,
Don

[RLR]

Norton Coarse and Fine stone. Finish on the fine side with some liquid soap.

Lansky pocket diamond sharpener deal - green and blue, built like a balisong kinda. Use the finer blue to put a nice toothy edge on stuff like D2 and carbon steel.

300 Grit Water Stone - really put some tooth on bigger knives that will bite!

[Woz]

I like to use the Byrd Duckfoot to sharpen knives I want to stay sharp long.
It produces microserrated edge very effektive.

Most of my knives are sharpened on the Sharpmaker, for normally I prefer polished edges. It depends on knife and intended use.

For some really expensive knives I use whetstones and leather. I try to produce mirror polished edges, but those do not stay long, so it´s useless to do that on EDC knives.

Woz

[Quickbeam]

What you needed here was something made from D2. All of my D2 knives feel really toothy and chomp through fabrics. At the other end of the spectrum I've found are steels like 52100, which can be shaving sharp but can't cut through cloth.

Regards

Nick

[fredswartz]

I used to like a polished shaving edge but now prefer the "utility edge"
as Sal describes it in the CD that comes with the Sharpmaker. I have never used the white stones in the kit or the white 701 profile stone that I have but will probably find some use for them like sharpening a straight razor.
I have lately been using only the 701 Brown stone to touch up my knives and it works great. It may be just me but I can tell when a knife has the right edge when it slightly bites my thumb. With a razor edge I can only tell by shaving some hair off my forearm, which either edge will do. I have even quit stropping an edge for the same reason. I want a working blade. My 9th grade shop teacher once told me that "sharpness is thinness and thinness is weakness". I sort of think this holds true here as a razor edge seems to dull faster.

[SimpleIsGood229]

My 9th grade shop teacher once told me that "sharpness is thinness and thinness is weakness". I sort of think this holds true here as a razor edge seems to dull faster.

It all depends upon the edge angle. I see what you're saying though, in that a ''razor'' edge may not keep its ''razorness'' for very long.